census Lookup please Smith Derby

[lynnf]

Hi can any one help ?

Lillian Doris Smith was born 23 aug 1901 6 Harrison street Derby, Her father was Albert Smith  Railway Labourer. Her mother  was Mary Ellaby

Lillian married 12 nov 1918 in derby age 17 fathers name Moses Smith, Labourer.
witnessed by Mary Louisa Smith and Moses Smith.

1901 census for 6 Harrison Street Shows
Mary L Smith  Head  M 33 Cheshire Macclesfield
Hannah L Smith Daugh 7 Ireland
Winifred M Smith Daugh 1 Derbyshire
Jasper A M Smith  son 6 mo Derbyshire
Moses Smith  Brother u  34 Railway Labourer Allestree Derby

 i cant find Albert anywhere nor can i find a marriage for mary and Albert

in the 1881 census i found
Moses Smith Head  w 56 Weaver
John Smith son  22 Plumber Glazier Gas fitter
Albert J Smith son 13
Edwin C Smith son 9
Elizabeth H  Smith daugh 6
Ernest Smith son 4 
All born Allestree Kent, Living Allestree Derby
 Could this be my Albert ?
 have found these births
moses Smith Christened 26 Aug 1866 Allestree
Jasper A Smith "         "    3 may 1868 Allestree
Parents Moses Smith  and Hannah
it seems Mary Ellaby married both Albert And Moses  there is a marriage on freebmd 1907 moses Smith to  Mary Louisa Goodwin

please would some one look on the other Census years for me

Lynn

[Valda]

1891 census RG12 2776 folio 131
Market Place Cromford  Derbyshire   
Moses Smith  24 Allestree, Derbyshire, Boarder Groom

1881 census RG11 3399 folio 77
144 Uttoxeter New Road Derby St Werburgh  Derbyshire
Moses Smith  15 Allestree Domestic Servant 

1871 census RG10 3577 folio 14
Allestree  Derbyshire   
Moses Smith  45 Allestree, Derbyshire,  Head Married Weaver
Hannah Smith  36  Tutbury, Staffordshire,  Wife Married
John Smith  12  Tutbury, Staffordshire,  Son 
Arthur Smith 10  Tutbury, Staffordshire,  Son 
Elias Smith 8  Tutbury, Staffordshire, Son 
Moses Smith 4  Tutbury, Staffordshire,  Son 
Joseph A Smith 3  Tutbury, Staffordshire,  Son 

Jasper not Joseph as stated on the 1871 census.

Births Jun 1868   
SMITH  Jasper Albert    Belper  7b 426

(Jasper) Albert's absence on censuses might be explained by his being in the army - which could also be an explanation for the birthplace of the first child in Ireland. In 1901 men were missing from the census because of the Boer War. If (Jasper) Albert had previously served in the army he might have gone to South Africa as a reservist.

It doesn't explain the two different surnames of Mary Smith - Ellaby and Goodwin or why if there was a first marriage widowed Mary did not marry for a second time as Mary Smith.

1881 census RG11 3495 folio 109
2h/10c Park Lane Macclesfield  Cheshire   
Louisa Allaby  50 Lower Withington, Cheshire, Head  Widow
Mary L. Allaby 13 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Daughter 

It appears there was a first marriage for Jasper Albert Smith

Marriages Sep 1888   
ALLABY  Mary Louisa    Chorlton  8c 1032   
Smith  Jasper Albert     Chorlton  8c 1032

Births Sep 1867   
Allaby  Mary Louisa    Macclesfield  8a 105

A first marriage for Jasper but not a first marriage for Mary Louisa

Marriages Jun 1885   
Allaby  Mary Louisa    Manchester  8d 325   
Goodwin  Harry     Manchester  8d 325

It now depends whether Mary Louisa was free to marry Jasper in 1888. The fact she married using the surname Goodwin in 1907 places some doubt on the legality of her subsequent marriages. Divorce was extremely expensive before the First World War. For a woman desertion alone was not grounds for divorce.

Purchasing the 1888 marriage certificate may give some useful further information about Jasper Albert's occupation in 1888. The 1885 marriage would give further information on Harry Goodwin which might help track him.

Regards

Valda

[lynnf]

Hi Valda
Thankyou very much, I will send off for the marriage certs today.  I will ask my mum in law if Albert did join the army, she did say she she had heard that her gran had married  Alberts brother because he was missing, but her mum never talked about family much. How would i find out if he was missing in the war?

Thanks
Lynn

[Valda]

Missing may just mean he went missing i.e. left his family.
The Boer War wasn't quite like the First World War where because of heavy guns and artillery that was used, soldiers did in fact go missing, buried under the mud, or because there was little left of them to find. Going missing during the Boer War would be more like desertion. Men during the war died from the effects of disease as well as through conflicts.
Soldiers deaths in the Boer War are in the overseas section of the GRO index which can be found on this pay by view website

http://www.findmypast.com/HomeServlet

People will do look ups for you but the issue is the names in the index appear with initals and surname only and with no age. So if Albert only used the name Albert his name would appear in the index merely as
A Smith and then his army unit.

Since the expression used by your mother-in-law (from her gran) was he went missing and not he died during the war (my great uncle was missing in the Great War but when he was not found his loss was described as 'died during the war/killed in action' in the following years after the war - not he went missing), perhaps Albert just went missing, but in his case not moving very far away?

Marriages Mar 1913   
Smith  Jasper A  Sharratt  Derby  7b 1015 
Sharratt  Eliza A  Smith  Derby  7b 1015   

Too young to be Jasper junior's marriage, because he was only aged 6 mths in 1901. Other than these two Jasper As, father and son, I can't see any others in the civil registration, so who is this man marrying in 1913?

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

Mary Louisa's family on the 1871 census.

RG10 3672 folio 33
6 Back Wallgate Macclesfield  Cheshire   
William Allaby  49  Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Head Married Furniture Broker
Louisa Allaby  42 Willington, Cheshire, Wife Married
Mary Louisa Allaby 4 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Daughter   

Regards

Valda

[lynnf]

Hi Valda
Thanks again for your help, i have ordered the certs and will let you know what i find, i will order the one for Jasper and eliza also just to see if its him, Are there any divorce records i can search do you know? 

thanks Lynn

[Valda]

Lynn

as you are ordering the marriage certificates wait till they come to know whether you need to research divorce records or not. If Jasper and Mary give their status as widow and widower then no divorce took place. A divorcee should give their status on their next marriage.

There was a divorce in my family just after the First World War - it was a big deal in those days and not forgotten. It was possible to divorce after the First World War because of the advent of free legal aid (but still difficult for women since desertion was not cause enough - they would need to prove adultery as well, almost impossible if your husband had deserted you and you didn't know where he was). Before then couples either stayed together regardless, split up, split up and lived with someone else, usually as man or wife, or married bigamously. Bigamous marriages were surprisingly common. I even have one where a Metropolitan policeman married a woman who had been deserted by her first husband. His employees would have frowned on him living with the woman, so they illegally married instead. The whole family knew about it and had great sympathy for the couple.

Regards

Valda

[lynnf]

Hi Valda
I have recieved mariage certs the first one

June  8 1885 Mary Louisa Allaby 18yrs Spinster Frustian cutter 8 Charles street William Allaby (dead) Furniture Dealer.

Harry Goodwin 19yrs Bachelor Frustian cutter 8 Charles Street John Goodwin Boatman.

2nd marriage
sept 17 1888
Mary Louisa Allaby 21 Spinster  4 Pill ? street Willam Allaby (deceased) cabinet Maker.

Jasper Albert Smith 22 Bachelor Groom ? 4 Pill ? street Moses Smith (Deceased) Weaver.

My Mum in law said she doesnt know if he died or not but if after a 7yrs if the man didnt return the woman could marry again,so maybe thats why the seven yrs for the next marriage to Moses, I also heard that a man could not marry is brothers wife. is this why she used the name Goodwin.

Lynn

[Valda]

After 7 years you would need reasonable proof that your former husband was dead and go through the legal process of having him declared dead otherwise you are committing bigamy. At this point (until the next marriage certificate arrives and proves otherwise) it may very well be Jasper was alive and living in Derby. If that's the case it was unlikely each couple did not know of the other's existence at some point through Smith family links.

Another possibility for why Mary Louisa may have used the surname Goodwin was because that was her legal marriage surname. The 'Deceased Brother's Widow's Marriage Act' was not passed until 1921, but it was an act that was commonly flouted. If Mary Louisa had committed bigamy to marry Jasper in the first place then her second marriage to Jasper was not legal.

A possible for the Goodwins in 1881

RG11 3489 folio 3?
26 Arbourhay Street Hurdsfield  Cheshire   
John Goodwin 38 Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Head Married Labourer
Martha Goodwin  39 Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Wife Married
William Goodwin 18 Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Son  Stone mason
Harry Goodwin  14 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Son Silk Piercer 

1891 census RG12 2817 folio 66
4 Pool Street Sutton  Cheshire   
John Goodwin  49 Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Head Married  Brick Labourer
Martha Goodwin  48 Macclesfield, Cheshire,  Wife Married Silk Winder
Harry Goodwin 25 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Son Single Cotton Fustian Cutter

Regards

Valda