Janet Young - Help Appreciated.

[JAP]

...
I think the typo's are catching, Jap I think it should be Wren instead of Weir,
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Hi Tom, We all make typos but this time I'm relieved to be able to say that it's not my typo   WEIR is definitely how it has been transcribed on FreeCEN 

Hi Scott, But the question remains - what (if any) relationship is stated for Janet YOUNG in the 1851 census?

Incidentally, the household of George & Helen (as Ellen) WREN in 1841 is also on FreeCEN - George a hotel-keeper & spirit dealer and born in England!  And George's mother might well be the 75yo Elizabeth WREN b England

JAP
PS: Scott, if George & Helen/Ellen survived until the time of Statutory Registration in Scotland (1855) and were still in Scotland, their death certs should give their parents' names ...

[tidybooks]

Hi Scott and JAP,


In the 1841 census at 1 Castle Street Edinburgh in a Hotel,

George Wren 35 b 1806 England – Hotel Keeper & Spirit Dealer
Ellen Wren 25 b 1816 Midlothian – wife
Elizabeth Wren 75 b 1766 England – Mother of George possibly
Georgina Wren 9 b 1832 Edinburgh
Janet Wren 8 b 1833 Edinburgh
Joseph Wren 7 b 1834 Edinburgh
Eleanora Wren 5 b 1836 Edinburgh

In the 1851 census at 4 Milne’s Square Edinburgh

Janet Young 66 b 1785 Edinburgh - Poulterer employs 4 men
Ellen Wren 38 b 1813 Edinburgh Seamstress - daughter
Georgina Wren 9 b 1832 Edinburgh granddaughter
Janet Wren 17 b 1834 Edinburgh granddaughter
Joseph Wren 16 b 1835 Edinburgh grandson
Eleanora Wren 14 b 1837 Edinburgh granddaughter
Marion Wren 6 b 1845 Cumberland England granddaughter
Jamima Wren 4 b 1847 Cumberland England granddaughter
Plus 3 servants.

Will need Helen /Ellen Wren (nee Carmichael or Young) birth certificate to sort out if Helen was illegitimate or if Janet did marry once or twice.

Tom

[tidybooks]

Hi Scott & JAP

In 1851 census at 43 Broughton Street Edinburgh

George Wren 49 b 1802 Cumbeswell (sic – Camberwell?) London – Cook

On IGI extracted record got Geo Wren b 17 Jul 1803 and c 05 Feb 1804 at St Giles Camberwell, London, to parents Josh Wren and Elizabeth, ties in with 75 yo staying with him in 1841. I supect that George and Ellen have seperated since last born child Jamima i n1847 in Cumberland.

Tom

[scottcharles]

Janet Georgina Wren christened 10 Jan 1832
Jessie Elizabeth Wren christened 30 Jun 1833 My ggg grandmother
Joseph Wren christened 12 Oct 1834
Eleanor Wren christened 30 Jul 1836
Veronica Wren christened 17 Sep 1837

Another problem I'm confronted with is non-standardised spelling and people changing their names!

Helen Carmichael has been listed as, Helen, Ellen, Eleanora, Ellenora, and all kinds of other names! It's maddening!

Janet Georgina Wren has also been written down as Georgina Jeanette Wren. She an my ggg grandmother moved to South East London with their mother and another sibling, Jemima. They are listed in the 1861 England census. By this time Ellen Wren is listed as widow, as his her daughter, Jessie Stapleton.

I don't know what happened to Joseph and Veronica.

The thing that confused me was that "Helen" took the surname Carmichael when her mother had the surname Young. Either Helen was a widow that married again, or her mother could have married twice?

Anyway, for some reason, the family migrated to London. I'm suspecting the move was either triggered by George Wren's death or Janet Young's death.

Am I right for assuming Janet Young may have had a bit of money as she always seems to have servants in the house?

I would just like to find out why the family moved, and if possible, trace the family back a little further back.

I noticed two of Helen Carmichael (Ellen Wren)'s youngest children were born in Carlisle, Cumberland, England.

Now, either the family travelled from England to Scotland regularly, or the children were born whilst they were moving.

I've also noticed that some of Helen's children were left with her mother in some of the census records which seemed a bit odd to me.

Thank you everyone for your clues! The search continues!

[tidybooks]

Hi Scott,

I do not think "Helen" was on her 2nd marriage, her eldest child was 9 on the 1841 census, and she would have been 28 , without the 1841 rounding up, so married at 19, so possible but unlikely. I think more searches on Janet Young are required, Helen's birth certificate may give a clue, it was usually father and child's name but they may help.

Tom

[scottcharles]

Hi Scott,

I do not think "Helen" was on her 2nd marriage, her eldest child was 9 on the 1841 census, and she would have been 28 , without the 1841 rounding up, so married at 19, so possible but unlikely. I think more searches on Janet Young are required, Helen's birth certificate may give a clue, it was usually father and child's name but they may help.

Tom

Thanks for that Tom, I should have looked more closely at that actually - it's great having other rootschatters to point the obvious out when you've looked over something stupid!

[JAP]

Some thoughts.

1. Re the children born in Cumberland, it might be interesting to look at their baptismal entries and/or birth certificates to see if there are any clues to the Cumberland connexion.

Children of George WREN and Eleanor baptized at Saint Cuthbert, Carlisle, Cumberland, England:
*Caroline bap 21 Aug 1843
*Marian bap 23 Jan 1845
*Jemima bap 3 Sep 1846

Certificate references:
*Caroline WREN birth Sep qtr 1843, Carlisle, Vol 25, Page 56
   " death Sep qtr 1843, Carlisle, 25 32
*Marion WREN birth mar quarter 1845, Carlisle, 25 55
*Jemima WREN birth Sep qtr 1846, Carlisle, 25 50

2. I don't see anything odd about children staying (perhaps only overnight - who knows!) with their grandmother.  Incidentally, did you notice that Joseph (assuming the FreeCEN record of his surname is an error) was recorded twice in 1841 - once aged 7 with Grandma, and once aged 6 with his parents.

3. It might be worth downloading the parish register entry for the 1830 marriage of George WREN & Helen CARMICHAEL from ScotlandsPeople just in case there is anything which gives a clue.

4. Unfortunately there does not seem to be in the IGI a record of the birth/baptism of a Helen (or variant) CARMICHAEL or a Helen (or variant) YOUNG, 1813 +/- 10 years, Midlothian, mother Janet/Jane/Jessie (likely variants of Janet).

5. It might be worth searching on SP for the death of Janet YOUNG - but it's a common name!  Also for the death of George WREN.

Regards,

JAP

[scottcharles]

Hi Jap,
Thanks once again for your help! Especially the baptismal entry information, and idea about obtaining the certificates for more information. I hadn't thought of that!

I did notice the double recording of Joseph, but really didn't know what to make of it. I'm still quite new to all this, so when things like that happen I don't really know what to derive from it!

I will definitely have a good browse through scotlandspeople once I've got a bit more money in.

Mentioning that Jessie is a variant of Janet really opened up an avenue for me. I didn't know that until you mentioned it, and now I know who the child Janet is in one of the records!

The death of George Wren would be interesting and I'm looking forward to finding out more information about Janet Young.

How far back is it possible to trace family in Scotland? I'm sorry that that's a pretty vague question, I was just wondering how far you have all got with your own research in Scotland I presume everybody likes to go as far back as they can!

[tidybooks]

Hi Scott,

I though tyou knew about Janet/ Jessie etc, here is a good website to keep.

http://www.whatsinaname.net/

Tom