Hori Norman of Selborne

[sproutie 1]

Need fresh ideas on where to look next into the parentage of Hori Norman bc 1828 in Liverpool,At Sea or Selborne variously according to all Censuses.
In 1841 he is living in Selborne with George & Elizabeth Kemp but it does not show how he is related to them.George is a stonemason and indeed Hori becomes a stonemason too.
In 1849 Hori marries Ellen Cannon in Selborne and his father attends the Wedding he is named George Norman a soldier. i presume his mother had died.
Bearing in mind the date does anyone know of any barracks around the Selborne area? I would like to find out the regiment and also if there were any wars going on around that time?
Any new suggestions would be welcome.
Hori Norman was my husbands gg grandfather.

[Little Nell]

Hi sproutie,

Welcome to RootsChat. 

Unfortunately I can't find any baptism in Selborne children with the surname Norman.     Looks like it might be one of the other places.

Nell

[AMBLY]

Hi Sproutie

There were Army Barracks on the Isle of Wight, which could be a possibilty....
However, I just wondered how are you able to determine that Hori's father "attended the wedding" of Hori and Ellen  and who were the witness to the marriage?

I think there is a good chance the KEMPS were Hori's grandparents? ie: that his mother was a KEMP - but which one!!

This looks like George KEMP in 1851:
1851: Selbourne, Hampshire
Ref: HO107; Piece: 1679; Folio: 240; Page: 4;
Head: Peter PHILLIPS 33, Agricultural Labourer
Wife: Mary 34,
Dau: Elizabeth 11, Scholar
Dau: Martha 10, Scholar
Son: Henry 8, Scholar
Dau: Maria 7, Scholar
Son: James 5, Scholar
Son: Thomas  4,
Son: John 3,
Son: George 1,
Father - In - Law: George KEMP 77, Pauper - formerley Brickmaker
ALL born Selbourne

The Phillips'  are found on later Census too - they had a huge family.

I have found info to state:
Mary PHILLIP's parents were George KEMP and Elizabeth FRY, married 5 Jun 1797 Selbourne, and Elizabeth  died 1849, George 1853.

George and Elizabeth had:
* Martha 1799 (not on IGI?)
Henry  KEMP chr 26 Dec 1802
*Elizabeth 1804 (not on IGI?)
Hore KEMP 17 May 1807
Sarah 26 Mar 1809
John chr 24 Oct 1813
Mary CHR 7 Jul 1816  married Peter Phillips 11 May 1839

If Elizabeth was born abt 1773 (she and George were both listed as 67 in 1841 when Hori NORMAN was with them) then I would guess Mary could be a last child. There seems to be a gap between Sarah & John, and John & Mary though.

George was the son of George KEMP and Martha BIDE married Selborne 24 Dec 1771

children on IGI to parents George Kemp and Martha - all born Selbourne (IGI - mostly submitted).
George chr 27 Dec 1773
William chr 18 Jan 1776
Anne chr 17 Jun 1778
Eli chr 14 Sep 1779
James chr 17 Ag 1783
Hannah b 21 Jul 1785, chr 14 Aug 1785
Anna Maria b 2  Feb 1787, chr 25 Feb 1787
Richard b 11 Jun 1788, chr 29 Jun
Elisha  b 13 Mar 1790, chr 13 Apr 1790
Hori 28 Mar 1794, chr 24 Apr 1794  - married Hannah; had son Hori in 1817
Sarah  b7 Oct 1795, chr 7 Nov 1795

I also found a page showing details of another George KEMP married and Ann COOPER in Selbourne 1807. They had children born Priors Dean 1809 to 1826. One son was a Hori KEMP b 1826, one was an Elijah, another Elisha
http://www.hampshireclarktree.com/indi209487292.html

So there is a strong similarity simply in naming of children!

Anyway - I just though if you could try finding all you can about George KEMP & Elizabeth FRY's  children you may end up, by  process of elimination -  with a possible name for Hori's mother?

Cheers
AMBLY

[sproutie 1]

Thanks for your replies!i'm really chuffed to have had some help!
Hori & Ellen Norman's marriage took place on 4th August 1849 St Mary's Selborne,marriage notes - Hori Norman,of full age,bachelor,bricklayer,residing Selborne,father George Norman,Soldier.Ellen Cannons,of full age,spinster,residing Selborne,father William Cannons,Labourer.
Witnesses Eli Christmas and Elizabeth Christmas.
Children of Hori & Ellen:
George born bef 28 Nov 1849 Selborne died 1877 Selborne
Henry born bef 4 Jan 1851 Selborne died 14 Feb 1926 Selborne (this chap was my hubbys great grandfather.
Harriet b1853 -1877 Selborne
Rose 1855- Selborne
Rebecca 1858 "
Maria b 18 Oct 1859 d 19 Oct 1859 Selborne.
Most of them married in st Marys so I would have thought there would be Norman baptisms there!
Going back to the Kemps I would have thought they could be Horis grandparents too.I've looked at the list of their children and the most likely one could be Elizabeth b1804 who's not on the IGI.Poss she could have died giving birth to Hori in 1828 maybe in Liverpool after all George Norman could have been stationed there?Its all very tantalizing!
I will try and do some further research as you say the names could be a clue.It looks like they all had huge families- no tv back then ha ha!
this is great cheers!
Sue

[Little Nell]

I can't find a marriage of George Norman to a female Kemp in Hampshire.  A number of Kemp brides got married in Selborne e.g. a Sarah in 1815, an Elizabeth in 1822, an Ann in 1821.  Hori Kemp married Hannah Carpenter in 1814.

Selborne is very rural, famous as the home of Gilbert White.  I don't know of any barracks in that area.

As far as I can see, it is only 1851 which gives Hori as born in Selborne.  1841 says born out of county,  1881, 1891 and 1901 all give Liverpool.

And I checked the burials up to 1837 - nothing for a George Norman

Nell

[AMBLY]

Hi Sproutie and Nell 

It's the 1891 Census which has Hori's POB as "At Sea (Unlnown)".
Then of the remaining 5 Census which record town of birth - it  states Selbourne thrice (1851, 1861, 1871  and Liverpool twice (1881 and 1901)

The fact 1891 seems 'one out of the box' and actually quite specific by saying At Sea  for me makes the statement  more likely - but not certain -  to be true. However if it were true, it may not have been the High Seas either. His Soldier father could have been stationed in Ireland for example, or even was Irish and Hori was born going one way or the other. 

Also, the fact Hori was with the KEMPs in 1841 - this only meant he was there on that Census night, it doesn't necessarily follow he was living with them all the time.

Any of those Kemp girls could have been Hori's mother, I wouldn't have thought Elizabeth any more likely than the others? All of them would have been of age to give birth to him in or around 1828!. Actually - I think it was Elizabeth I thought I may have found in 1851 as a married woman? Hi Nell,    are you able you say who the husband was for those 3 marriages of KEMP girls - maybe we can find them in Census? 

Hori & Ellen's 1849 marriage
Unfortunately, this document does not in any way infer George NORMAN attended the wedding. Or that Hori's mother had died.

I simply records that Hori has declared his father's name and occupation as he did.. The information is  also not 'verified' - Hori could have made George up (marrying persons often did make up father's entirely forom  figments of imagination or half-fibbed by cobbling together the name of a father and a stepfather etc etc  to cover up illigitimacy or underage marriage). He may even not have known whether his father was dead or alive.  Nor does the lack of the word "deceased' mean George was supposed to be alive at the time of the marriage - he may not have been.  Some registrations were more precoise than others in this regard.. His father did not have to be around when Hori was born either - he only had to have been around approcimately 7 to 9 months earlier.  If one of the marriage witness'  had been a George NORMAN - it could have been the father,  or an other relative. However....

The witness' were Eli CHRISTMAS and Elizabeth CHRISTMAS (who appear as a married couple in Selbourne 1851).
Was Elizabeth  Ellen's sister -  an Eli CHRISTMAS married Alton RD 1838 and a possible bride was  Elizabeth CANNON?

Gosh, I sound negative ! But while George NORMAN could have been alive and well in 1849, he could also be living anywhere -  the UK, Ireland  or  abroad, India etc etc.

Pewrhaps I would be more inclined to try find out about Hori's mother first   and look more closely at the Kemps's as you say.  I would think the PHILLIPS family would keep you going for months if not years       I did go thru the Phillips' briefly, hoping to find something to connect her to Hori as a sister-in-law - a neice/nephew in the house etc, but couldn't see anything.

Cheers
AMBLY

[sproutie 1]

Hi again thanks for your help.
We do think that George Norman was real because later on many grandsons were in the military.Esp Cavalry regiments.We have a Charles frederick Norman b1875 Selborne whose mother was Harriet 1853-1877 (illegit) son.She was Hori's daugh.
Anyway this chap joined the 1st Life Guards in Nov 1896 and served in South Africa during the Boer War.
I believe Henry Norman b1875 son of George 1849-1877 also had a military career.
Also the sons of Henry 1850-1926 joined up prior WW1.Harry Norman b1882 was in the 12th Prince of Wales Royal Lancers and was killed in Belgium in 1915 he has a war grave there.
My husbands grandfather also has a war grave Thomas Norman b1887 he was in the Royal Engineers as a Sapper and also died in 1915.His War Grave is in St Mays Churchyard in Selborne.
So there is a strong military tradition.
Also Jasper Norman another brother of the above was aboard the Lusitania's final voyage and perished again in 1915 he is on the passenger list.App he was returning to enlist after visiting his sister Elizabeth Scammell nee norman in New york.1915 was a dreadful year for the Norman's in Selborne.
I thought Elizabeth Kemp may be the ideal one for poss Horis mother simply because of the name but as you said it could be any one of them!
It certainly is a mystery! yes Ambly I'm on ancestry still! Will look them up!
Yes the Christmases are connected to the Cannons via marriage I believe 3 of Ellen's sisters Frances m Thomas Christmas in 1834 and Mary Ann m James in 1834 and Elizabeth m Eli Christmas in 1838.One of them had a daughter called Mary Christmas can you believe that!!!!!
Thanks

[Little Nell]

I agree with Ambly - there is no indication that Hori's parents were at the wedding in 1849.  Nor is there anything to indicate that they were dead either.

The female Kemp marriages in Selborne are as follows:

Sarah Kemp m William Olliver 28 Nov 1815
Ann Kemp m John Newland 13 Feb 1821
Elizabeth Kemp m Matthew Cole 26 May 1822

Also featured are Mary, Dinah, Mary Ann, Maria, Anne and another Mary Ann.

I can't see how the Sarah is daughter of George & Elizabeth - she would only have been 9 years old unless she was not baptised as a child!  There is no guarantee that any of these are daughters of George & Elizabeth.

Nell

[sproutie 1]

Well at least I have more options to explore.
I would have thought Hori must be connected to the Kemps perhaps illegit even?Why would he be with them aged 13 in 1841?Did people adopt back then?
I was reading about the Riots in Selborne and surrounding areas in 1830 and there were apparently soldiers staying at the Compass Inn of the Life Guard regiment.Do you think it feasible that George Norman was one of these?Or maybe I'm getting carried away...........
Thanks again