Sarah HUGHES mystery - detectives needed!

[jaylay]

I am trying to connect Sarah Hughes (My GGrandmother) to a family of Hughes in Armagh that I am almost positive she is a part of. 

Here's what I know about her for definite:

She was born around 1856 in Co. Armagh (she has knocked a few years off her age in the 1881 Scottish census (age 25) , the 1901 Irish census (age 40), and on her death cert in 1912 (aged 52) - so not completely sure of year).

She had a brother Francis Hughes.

She was married on 25th December 1877 to John Kelly, in St Malachys Church Belfast.  The witnesses were Charles Hughes and Elizabeth Hughes.  No parents mentioned.

The family I think she may be connected to are Edward Hughes and Anne O'Hagan/Hagan (parents)  with:

Charles Hughes      b. 21 Dec 1845
Mary Hughes          b. 10 Dec 1848
Ann Hughes           b.  6 Mar 1853
Catherine Hughes   b. 20 Apr 1856
Alicia Anne Hughes b. 6 Feb 1859
Francis Hughes       b. 15 Jun 1864

Any suggestions as to how I can connect her for definite with this family? The other possibility is that this Edward Hughes was her uncle, and not her father.  My head hurts from trying to work this one out  - help!

Thanks
Jaylay

[BallyaltikilliganG]

Jaylay, there is a new resource on line for Co Armagh, I am trying to evaluate it. So if you try  www.irish-roots.net/pay-per-view.asp
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1846 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1846 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1848 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1849 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1849 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah 1849 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah Ann 1850 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah-Ann 1854 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah-Ann 1854 Co. Armagh 
Baptism Hughes Sarah Anne 1855 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Sarah Ann 1860 Co. Armagh

Marriage Hughes Edward 1837 Co. Armagh
Marriage Hughes Edward 1837 Co. Armagh
Marriage Hughes Edward 1838 Co. Armagh
Marriage Hughes Edward 1843 Co. Tyrone
Marriage Hughes Edward 1843 Co. Tyrone
Marriage Hughes Edward 1846 Co. Armagh
Marriage Hughes Edward 1848 Co. Armagh
Marriage Hughes Edward 1849 Co. Armagh

I removed some references from both. eg The Co Tyrone references above are probably from a parish sitting cross counties etc.

So these sound great possibilities, however at £10 a look up, you would need to be very sure what you are seeking, its too expensive a resource unless brickwalled

Good luck anyway, Jim

[BallyaltikilliganG]

I looked at Francis for 1840-1848 and found
Baptism Hughes Francis 1840 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1840 Co. Tyrone
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1840 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1840 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1841 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1842 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1843 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1844 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1845 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1845 Co. Armagh
Baptism Hughes Francis 1845 Co. Armagh
 Baptism McNally Francis 1846 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1847 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1847 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1847 Co. Armagh
 Baptism McNally Francis 1847 Co. Tyrone
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1848 Co. Armagh
 Baptism Hughes Francis 1848 Co. Armagh
and there will be many more
So the new information possible is brilliant, tantalising and too expensive to use for everyday use. Do tell me how you react, good luck, Jim

[jaylay]

Hi Jim - thank you for looking up all those Hughes for me!  In fact I have already used Armagh Ancestry (which is what that Armagh site effectively is) - I am sorry to say I have already forked out about £90 (yes £90!) for the records that I listed on the first message on this thread - you are right - it is way too expensive to use in this way - and also very tempting, since one thinks - maybe this will be the one record that will give me everything I need and knock down the brick wall!  So I am trying to stay away from the site for the moment, at least until I have some more clues to go on!

Jaylay

[BallyaltikilliganG]

That is really annoying to know.  So ignoring that site other than its index what else could we find out about Armagh. Do you know if the family was catholic, and a catholic parish or civil parish connected. St Malachys, Belfast is Catholic I think. If so you could check the source list used by Armagh Ancestry and possibly find another way to the parish or the actual church record you want.. Another lateral think, is did they stay in Belfast during say 1879/1880, do you know their occupations in Scotland printing trade etc.   I extract a few tantalisers from Mary Lennons website www.lennonwylie.co.uk/alphanames1880ijkl.htm
Hughes, Alex., clerk, 16 Powerscourt Street
Hughes, B., & Son, bakery, Falls Road, stores, 75 to 79 Divis Street (See Adv.)
Hughes, Edwd., (of B. Hughes & Son), Holywood
Hughes, C., compositor, 78 Milford Street
Hughes, Edward, solicitor, 1 Lombard Street, res., 2 University Square
Hughes, Francis P., clerk, 108 Turin Street
Hughes, Fras., provision merchant, 28 Cromac Street
Hughes, George, cashier, 4 Hampton Terrace
Hughes, Henry, buyer, 89 Falls Road
Hughes, M. B., woollen draper, 4 Donegall Street
Hughes, James, cork cutter, 52 & 54 Hercules Street
Hughes, James, gentleman, 6 Ballynafeigh Road
Hughes, James, butcher, 94 Ann Street
Hughes, John, spirit store, 30 Donegall Quay
Hughes, John, salesman, 58 Joy Street
Hughes, J., commercial traveller, 93 Dunlop Terrace, Limestone Road
Hughes, John, dealer, 34 Massereene Street
Hughes, J., spirit dealer, 241 & 243 York Street
Hughes, John, grocer, 30 Distillery Street
Hughes, John, hair dresser, 133 York Street
Hughes, John, printer, 13 California Street
Hughes, Mary J., dress maker, 10 Chambers Street
Hughes, Miss Sarah, 3 Balaklava Street
Hughes & Major, agents, Commercial Union Assurance Co., Fire and Life, 23 Waring Street
Hughes, William, (of Hughes & Major), 21 University Square
Hughes, Chas., & Co., drapers, 213 York Street

Kelly, J. & J., publican, 158 North Street
Kelly, John, publican, 161 Millfield
Kelly, John, coal merchant, 10 Queen's Quay, res., 94 Bellavale, Mountpottinger Road
Kelly, John, Custom House Officer, 31 Lavinia Street
Kelly, John, seed dealer, 35 Market Street
Kelly, John, printer, 87 Lindsay Street
Kelly, John, 59 University Road
Kelly, John, grocer, Belmont Terrace, Strandtown
Kelly, John, spirit dealer, 22 Gamble Street
Kelly, John, brush and portmanteau manufacturer, 18 Castle Place, res., 59 Botanic View, University Road
Kelly, John, telegraph official, 30 Furlong Terrace
Kelly, John, Ballynafeigh Road
Kelly, John, grocer, 1 Peveril Street
Kelly, John, spirit dealer, 1 Divis Street
Kelly, John, chandler, 35 Millfield
So keep going somehow, jim

[jaylay]

Hi Jim

Thanks for all of that - I really appreciate it!  I think that the John Kelly living at 22 Gamble Street is a possibility in 1879/80.  Other things I know for sure about Sarah Hughes and John Kelly:

Her name is variously listed as Sarah Mary Hughes or Sarah Frances Hughes or Sarah Hughes, (on her children's birth certs).  I've never seen her referred to as Sarah Ann.  So we can discount, I think, those references on Armagh Ancestry that have Ann in the name.  There were possibly butchers in her family - possibly also her father.

John Kelly was a publican in the Scottish census.  Also, on all of this children's birth certs.  John and Sarah lived at (all Belfast addresses):

1883:  34 Thompson Street (with a Mahood, who was related somehow to Sarah)
1887:  60 Corporation Street (which was also a pub)
At some point in the 1890s they moved to 104-108 Bridge End, another pub.

In 1912 When Sarah died she was living at 76 Willowbank Street.  Her husband did not appear to be living with her (she is listed as the occupant in Belfast St Directory).

1n 1917/18 John Kelly is living at 72 Newtownards Road, with Lizzie and Belle Hughes (possibly other relations of Sarah's).

And then the trail goes cold...

Jaylay

[BallyaltikilliganG]

Ok but don’t give up,  gear up instead, for reducing new trails in the new year. Here are some quick thoughts
You haven’t explained who her marriage witness Elizabeth Hughes was.  Could she be Charles wife or more importantly her mother or aunty?

Baptism Hughes Sarah Mary 1896 Co. Armagh another from that site.

In Co Down HUGHES manuscript trees in volumes 29, and volume 33 [this reference for the family who lived at Carnacaw Ballee] are. in the Blackwood Family history manuscript trees in the LinenHall library, Belfast.  This is an idea if you are stuck by next year. I suggest you wait till you are next in Belfast, then ask them for photocopying estimates if they think your knowledge relevant and you should be prepared to pay a fee for copying, post and packing, and perhaps some staff time and overheads. However if the material is really relevant when you get it, I suggest a further donation to this unique library that is always needing extra funds and because you have acquired a valueable family tree say £100-£10,000.. Linen Hall Library,17 Donegall Square North, Belfast BT15GB, Northern Ireland, Telephone: +44 (0)28 9032 1707,  Fax: +44 (0)28 9043 8586, Email: <irish.reference[at]linenhall.com>.

Mary Lennon’s great website includes her most recent the Belfast street directory for 1907 which shows
Kelly, Jno., spirit merchant, 106 Bridge End
Kelly, John, tobacconist, 104 Bridge End but no Sarah listed elsewhere

Have you tried Belfast Forum www.belfastforum.co.uk for Hughes and Kelly. Could the link be using their search engine this item
“anyone remember or heard of the iona hotel dock street? in Belfast History
by misskelly...  James Mahood. I know his mum was lizzie Kelly and that her place of residence was ...Katy Kelly xxxx   great granddaughter of the elusive..2007  .”
endof part one Good luck Jim

[BallyaltikilliganG]

Hi Jaylay
Part two
If  Sarah Hughes was part of a Co Armagh catholic family, then because there are so many Hughes in Co Armagh, her record should exist in only just over 40 catholic or civil parishes. If you were to think at the moment that surely Griffiths householders1848-1865 must include her forbears the parish search reduces to 27 civil ones. where a Hughes ancestor was living , so it’s one of the following
“Armagh-Ballymore-Clonfeacle-Creggan-Derrynoose-Drumcree-Eglish-Forkill-Grange-Jonesborough-Keady-Kilclooney-Kildarton-Killevy-Killyman-Kilmore-Kilmore-Lisnadill-Loughgall-Loughgilly-Mullaghbrack-Newry-Newtownhamilton-Seagoe-Shankill-Tartaraghan-Tynan.”  How can one reduce that.
But personally I would stick to a combination of both
Armagh catholic or civil parish;Ballybot civil parish;Ballymacnab catholic parish
Ballymore & Mullabrack (Tandragee) catholic parish;Blackwatertown civil parish
Clonfeacle (Moy) catholic parish;Crossmaglen (Creggan Upper) catholic parish
Crossmaglen civil parish;Cullyhanna (Creggan Lower) catholic parish
Derrynoose (Keady) catholic parish;Derrynoose civil parish
Dromintee catholic parish;Drumcree (Portadown) catholic parish
Eglish   catholic parish;Faughart (Jonesborough) catholic parish
Forkhill (Mullaghbawn) catholic parish;Forkhill civil parish
Keady   civil parish;Killeavy Lower (Bessbrook) catholic parish
Killeavy Upper (Cloghougue)   catholic parish;Kilmore (Mullavilly) catholic parish
Loughgall catholic or civil parish;Loughgilly (Whitecross) catholic parish
Lurgan No. 1 & 2 civil parish;Lurgan/Shankhill catholic parish
Markethill civil area or parish;Meigh   civil parish
Mountnorris civil parish;Mullaghglass civil parish
Newry No. 1 civil parish;Newry No. 2 civil parish
Newtownhamilton civil parish;Portadown civil parish
Poynztpass civil parish;Richill civil parish;Seagoe catholic parish
Tartaraghan civil parish;Tynan (Middletown) catholic parish
Tynan   civil parish
So again how can reduce that list to just one. 

You could print out on an excel spreadsheet Griffiths householders and resort them so the past use of Sarah in Co Armagh turns up in
 Sarah      Armagh City Market Str   Armagh
Sarah      Mullanary   Clonfeacle
Sarah      Carrigans Contd   Forkill
Sarah      Shean Village of Forkill   Forkill
Sarah      Annahugh   Kilmore
Sarah      Borough of Charlemont   Loughgall
Sarah      Charlemont   Loughgall

Or you could resort by parish and then by townland  and shows which first names are associated with them
      Aghinlig   Loughgall
Edward   Ardress, West.   Loughgall
James      Borough of Charlemont   Loughgall
Peter      Borough of Charlemont   Loughgall
Sarah      Borough of Charlemont   Loughgall
William   Borough of Charlemont   Loughgall
Cecilia      Charlemont   Loughgall
Mary      Charlemont   Loughgall
Peter      Charlemont   Loughgall
Sarah      Charlemont   Loughgall
William   Charlemont   Loughgall
Henry      Corr & Dunavally   Loughgall
James      Corr & Dunavally   Loughgall
Michael   Corr & Dunavally   Loughgall
Peter      Corr & Dunavally   Loughgall
Rose      Corr & Dunavally   Loughgall
Daniel      Eagralougher   Loughgall
Peter      Keenaghan   Loughgall
Edward   Tirmacrannon   Loughgall
John      Tirmacrannon   Loughgall
Mary      Tirmacrannon   Loughgall


There is always more free information somewhere.
eg www.familysearch.com or
eg finding by accident or design a relative.
Eg Just checking Genforum message boards for the Hughes surname, the number of messages is over 12000! And 629 relate to Ireland, of these 46 relate to co Armagh. so I retried for Sarah Hughes anywhere and there are 1188. If you haven’t tried it, you are going to be busy.     

I have learnt to take numerous holidays on ones own FH, you come back with a different understanding and hopefully break down another brick wall.
Good luck to you, Jim

[jaylay]

Hi Jim - I can' tell you how much I appreciate this help - You've obviously spent ages on this.  I am going to print all of this out now and go over it, and will get back to you in the morning with my thoughts.

Thanks a million 

Jaylay