Ann Sophia VINES (n. c1828, B'ham)

[The Geneal Geologist]

Any clues to the origins of Ann Sophia VINES (parentage) would be appreciated.
Age for birth year is estimate based on 1881 census info.
Thanks & regards,
Mark

[skylark]

Hello Mark

I can't answer your question but I think I have found them on the 1871 census -

no. 5 Roberts Building GT. Lister? St. Duddeston and Nechells Birmingham - RG 10/3150

John Smith Head. M.50 Labourer b. Lincoln
Ann Smith  Wife M.43 Pearl button finisher b. Warwickshire Birmingham.

ALSO  1871 - 4 James Buildings  Ladywood RG10/3096

Daniel Bicknell Head M 21 Nail cutter (Quilter?) b. B'ham
Elizabeth Bicknell 21 Nail cutter b.B'ham
Agnes Bicknell D. 2 b. B'ham
Daniel Bicknell S. 1 b. B'ham
Charles Smith Visitor 18 Nail cutter b.B'ham

ALSO Charles Smith visitor can be found (I think) on the 1861 census -

13 Court 7 house Upper Windsor St. Aston, Duddeston and Nechells Birmingham RG9/2179

John Smith Head M. 40 Stoker at gas works b. Aunsley? Lincolnshire
Mary Ann Smith D. 10 b. Staffordshire
Charles H Smith S. 8 b. Birmingham
Mary Hadon Lodger  28 French polisher b. Bridgenorth Shropshire.

ALSO 1861 - 2 court 3 house Gt. Lister St.(again) Duddeston and Nechells RG9/2178

Ann Manning Head W. 66 Laundress b. Birmingham
(next page)
Sarah Manning D. un. 33 Steel pen maker b. Birmingham
Ann Smith Lodger Un? 34 Charwoman b. Birmingham
Elizabeth Smith Dau.of lodger. 8 scholar b. Birmingham

(Perhaps there wasn't room for all of them in a 2 room flat?_

Have you got the marriage cert. for Ann Vine?  Her father's name would help.

Jean

[The Geneal Geologist]

Hi Jean -
Thanks for your reply which was extremely helpful. You have been very successful with the B'ham census when I struggled! I spent many hours on Ancestry trying all kinds of permutations without success. You clearly like a challenge and I've been rewarded.

I was aware of the BICKNELL family data in 1871 and the SMITH link which encouraged me to believe Elizabeth's mother married SMITH earlier as per the 1881 census. I know Elizabeth married BICKNELL in the D&N area as I have the MC. Her father was not given, so i assumed illeg. The 1861 entry is interesting, and certainly accounts for my not finding a family together.

I'm still looking for Elizabeth's BC, and it seems she is consistently given as B'ham but now on 1861 seems to be more 1853 than 1850-ish, perhaps? As she married as VINES (perhaps lying about her age), I thought she must be registered as VINES, but not found. There are an expensive number of Elizabeth SMITHs (14) in a 2 year period in B'ham, double that for 4 years, if she was registered as that. I may have to bite the bullet...

I was "tipped off" that Ann Sophia VINES (also listed as HINES on the BMD) married SMITH in Lincoln Q4 1859 (7a 915), but when I applied for the certificate a few weeks ago, it was rejected on the basis that her partner was not SMITH.  In the BMD for the same reference there is a John COULSON, but this is a long way off SMITH even for a transcription error. Maybe they left Lincoln for serious reasons and changed their name !? I may just have to reapply without the partner surname just to see if partner was a John.

Thanks again for a real impact on this family research, which has been bugging me for years. I shall ponder it all again in the next few days.

Current analysis is on
http://creativegraces.net/genindex/vines.html

Regards,
Mark, Geneva.

[skylark]

Hello Mark

Glad to help.

On the 1881 census Elizabeth Bicknell birth place was given as Wolverhampton Staffs.  I wonder if the census transcriber put Staffs. because I have found a birth for an Elizabeth Ann Palmer Vine jul/Sep 1851 Warehampton VIII 128 (Dorset)  This birth may have nothing to do with your family, but you never know!

1891 census - 3 court 4 house Cheshire St. Aston RG12/2432

John Smith Head Widr. 70 General Labourer b.Osenby Lincolnshire
Selina Bicknell grand daughter 17 Nail machine feeder b. Birmingham.

Ann Smith b. abt.1828 died 1889 jan/mar 1889 Aston 6d 217

This is the nearest death using the birth date - could be the one.

Jean

[skylark]

The birth of Elizabeth in Warehampton is not the one.  This one appears on the IGI with different parents.

[skylark]

I think that I may have found your Vine family in 1841 -

HO107/1141  Summer Lane  St. George  Birmingham

John Vine H 45  jappanner
Frances Vine 40
Caroline Vine 15
Ann Vine 15
Betsy Vine 11 b. warwickshire
Harriot Vine 8        "
Martha Williams 14
Jane Walters 2           "

IGI - Anne Vine ch. 13 Jul 1828 Bilston Staffordshire
Batch no. C010563 Father John Athiss Vine - Mother Fanny.

IGI - John Adkiss Vine m Frances Walters 31 Jul 1820 All Saints West Bromwich - Batch no. M010241.


1851 census 21 Vyse St. All Saints Birmingham HO107 2059

William Rolason Head M 34 Jeweller b. Birmingham
Caroline   "       Wife   M.31 b. Bilston
Fanny Vine     Mother Wid.51 b. Bilston
John W Rolason S. 10 b. B'ham
Elizabeth  "     D. 8 b. B'ham
Caroline A "    D. 2 b. B'ham
Ann         "    D. 1 b. B'ham
Elizabeth Mackdermott Serv. 16 b. Bromsgrove.

Jean

[The Geneal Geologist]

Jean - Once again, my thanks.
Certainly the VINE reference looks plausible. I shall have to try to work back if I can find Ann Sophia's marriage. These refs. will be very useful in that event. Interesting that both surnames are in the singular. I'm still wondering where Ann may be in 1851, since it would be useful to know if she's with her daughter Elizabeth then or not.
It's quite a detective story - then many families are.

Regards,
Mark

[skylark]

This is NOT your Vine family - I found an Ann Atkiss Vine m Charles Uriah Macey Set qtr 1854 Birmingham and they are still a family in 1881 census Surrey!

Jean

[The Geneal Geologist]

I had second thoughts too. As Ann seems to be Ann Sophia where records exists, I would expect a baptism to reflect both names. And, if she had an earlier marriage, VINES would be her first married name and not her maiden name, to complicate matters.

Tracking down the family in B'ham is a nightmare due to the sheer number of John, Charles Henry & Mary Ann SMITHs ! I noted a Mary Ann WILLIAMS witnessed Elizabeth's marriage to Dan BICKNELL in 1868, which could have been Mary Ann SMITH recently married. I found an 1867 marriage in Warwick between her namesake and a Moses WILLIAMS, but again due to the family's location, one would have expected all the refs. to be more immediate B'ham/Aston.

A real headache to find that small breakthrough that can be confirmed with a certificate.

Many thanks again for your continuing thoughts.