Golden Hope and Mary Smith - mid-19th century - East Anglia and Surrey

[CitizenSmith]

Searching for any references to a Golden or Golding Hope with a wife named Mary (born Smith).

They were originally from East Anglia (Suffolk/Essex/Norfolk) but in 1862 had a child named Walter Hope baptised at St Peter's, Croydon, Surrey. They also reputedly had a daughter named Mary or Polly who went on to marry Gus Gray.

Are there any other baptisms of children to this couple in East Anglia or Surrey or the counties in between?

Also happy to share my Hope information with others.

Thanks.
Sharon

[down-under]

Looks as if Golden took a younger second wife


1871 RG10/798 folio 106 page 16 Epsom Surrey


House or Horse Cart
Golden Hope age 45 Travelling Hawker Croydon Surrey
Ellen wife age 24 Epson Surrey
Golden son age 20 Middlesex
Robert son age 17 Lincoln lincolnshire
Jas son age 13 Lincoln
Leami dau age 12 Lincoln
Walley son age 9 Lincoln


Pam

[CitizenSmith]

Thanks Pam - that's the one. So I assume that he's either parted company with Mary or that she's died between 1862 and 1871.

Sharon

[An65]

Hi Sharon its Ann. I know who u are hope u know who I am too! we conversed about the Elliotts, Grays and Boss etc pedigrees thru the RTFS and Email (as well as snail mail over the yrs).


Mary was of course the Moll Smith d/o Ambrose & Sarah Cross, She being born circa 1811-18 and Golden Hope b cir 1821 epping ex, who later married Ellen b cir 1846 epsom, sy.

There was according to my scanty records, being taken whither and hither and then being lost in the great computor smash of 2007/8 :
 
John b.cir 1850 Epping
Golden b.cir 1852 Epsom
Robert b.cir 1850 Lincoln,
James b.cir 1852 Epping who married Alice b.cir 1861 Braintree
Leami b.cir 1858 Lincoln
Walter or Wally b.cir 18601 Croydon m. Rhoda b.cir 1865 Monmouth, Wales.


Moll being sister to Rachel, Carehappy, Honor, Phoebe (Femi), Randal, Tommy and Saunders.

Molls Other "Other half: being of course, Sylvester, "Wester" Boswell.

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Ann

Good to hear from you again. Many thanks for your info.

This Mary/Moll is one of those tantalising people who appeared in a family tree in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society (JGLS) but who still seems totally elusive today, despite the wealth of records now available to us. Her sister Rachael (reputedly the partner of a Nixey Lovell) remains equally difficult to trace. But I do know for a fact that Mary/Moll Smith actually existed as I have a copy of Walter Hope's birth certificate and Mary Smith is given as his mother. So she was definitely alive and kicking in 1862.

Also, I'm keeping an open mind about the identity of Mary's mother. She could well be Marella Draper rather than Sarah Cross. I say this because Rachel Smith is recorded as a daughter of Marella at her baptism in 1811 - and at the other end of the spectrum, so is her sister, my 3xgreat-grandmother Femi aka Fambridge Smith who was baptised in 1822. So Ambrose Smith seems to have a long and strong partnership with Marella over many years.

I've also yet to be totally convinced that the Ambrose Smith who married Sarah Cross is in fact 'my' Ambrose. There were plenty of other Ambrose Smiths around in the past - the majority of them gorgers!

Sharon

[An65]

Hi again, well you know what an addict I am when it comes to tracing the trees and I did cast an eye over the Ambrose Smith family some while ago, hence having found Golden Hope.
Ambrose (father of Moll) I do believe was married to both women - I havent found a Draper marriage, but I did find the one for Sarah Cross - 12.02.1813 Denver, Nfk.
Saunders Smith was a son of Ambrose & Sarah c.29.08.1819 Rendham, Sfk. He was transported to Oz in 1837.

[CitizenSmith]

Hi

Thanks for flagging up Saunders. I've done quite a bit of research on him - and on the Henry Smith who was tried for the same crime and transported with him. Their Australian convict records state they are brothers, Henry being about 10 years older than Saunders. Which means Henry is missing from the Smith tree in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society  - unless he's the mysterious 'Randle' listed there.

On transportees: as you probably know Ambrose the father of Saunders (and Henry) was also transported - but he was tried, convicted and sent over under the alias of 'Thomas Smith' in 1826. This man is definitely Ambrose, however: his Australian records state that his birthplace was Bergh Apton (as Ambrose's is) and that he has a wife named Morella who travels in and around Ipswich with her children. He is of the right age and profession (travelling tinker). And he also has a tattoed MD on his arm - which I like to think stands for 'Marella Draper'...

Sharon

[An65]

Now I DID wonder why I couldnt find Ambroses transportation.
Interestingly enough, his father Ambrose was transported in 1789 and died in 1790.

[CitizenSmith]

Pleased to report that I've today found the baptism of Mary Smith and of her daughter Mary (Polly) Hope by Golden Hope. They were both baptised in Costessey, Norfolk, in 1825 and 1848 respectively.

Thanks to all that helped along the way. Much appreciated.

Sharon