Thomas Joseph Burns RYAN

[Shazzam]

I'm trying to find information on my great grandfather,Thomas Joseph Burns RYAN, who according to his marriage certificate was born approx. 1876-1877 in Liverpool, Lancashire.

He married Isabella McCabe in Ingham, Queensland, Australia, on 27 Jan 1903, and their daughter, Lilian Margaret Ryan was born 16 Dec 1903 in Charters Towers, Queensland.

His marriage certificate gives his parents' names as Thomas Burns Ryan and Ellen McBride; his occupation was draper and auctioneer; he was a widower.

After the marriage Thomas seems to just vanish and his wife, Isabella, subsequently remarries in Charters Towers on 21 Feb 1912.  Information provided by an elderly family member was that soon after his marriage to Isabella, Thomas left for New Guinnea and was never heard from again.  Before he left, Thomas had requested his wife to send some packages to New Guinnea, which she did, but apparently poor Isabella never heard from him again.

If Thomas came to grief in New Guinnea I feel there must be a record of it somewhere and possibly Isabella would have heard about it.

My feeling is that he returned to England.

I've also tried to locate a birth registration for a Thomas Joseph Burns Ryan in Liverpool with the right parents' names and have been unable to do this.  Nor have I found a Ryan family who fits the bill on census records. I have, however, found a marriage record for a Thomas Burns and Ellen McBride in 1873, Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales.  This couple moved to Liverpool and had a son, a Thomas BURNS, in 1877.  Other children include John (1875), Mary Ellen (1879), Stephen (1881), Patrick (1882), Michael (1888) Richard (1890) and Elizabeth Catherine (1896).

Could this Thomas BURNS be my great grandfather?  The dates fit, but if this is him, where does the RYAN come from?  Perhaps it's a stepfather's name, but I can't find Ellen marrying a Ryan in later years.

My mind has entertained all possibilities, even that Thomas was a bigamist. Could he have come out to Australia on business, lied about being a widower, made up the RYAN bit, then returned to England (via New Guinnea) to an awaiting wife???

If anyone can offer some help/suggestions with this it would be greatly appreciated...I've been stuck with this line for 12 years now.  If it wasn't for his marriage record and the birth of his daughter, I'd be thinking Thomas was a figment of someone's imagination!

Thanks.

Regards,
Sharyn

[tropicalj]

Helllo  there

On  Isabella Ryans marriage certificate  does  it state  if  she  is a  Widow??



kind regards Jenn

[Shazzam]

Hi Jenn,

No, it doesn't state that she is a widow.  I've assumed she was able to remarry because Thomas had 'deserted' her almost 10 years previously...I think the legal time frame is 7 years post desertion.

Sharyn

[Kizzandra]

Well actually, you are not alone.
Burns is Irish, not scottish. There are a couple of TJ's - mine is still troublesome & occasionally elusive, and they are *all* cheeky on b'date.  Here is the birth cert details for yours - hunt the BDM to get your cert https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m

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Did Lillian have any relation to Aileen Margaret RYAN (b 1930's), say a neice or cousin or such?

Also it is just barely possible that Isabela McCabe's Grandaunt is Mary, who married James O'brien.  If you get a nibble, come talk to me - there may yet be more to tell....

[tropicalj]

Hello  there Kizzandra and welcome to rootschat

you have stated that Burns was Irish  not Scottish,  but  his marriage certificate states he was born in Lancashire,  do you have any  information that proves this incorrect?

thanks Jenn

[Kizzandra]

you have stated that Burns was Irish  not Scottish,  but  his marriage certificate states he was born in Lancashire,  do you have any  information that proves this incorrect?

I can only speak for my TJ, who I think is separate from Sharyn's TJ. I've run across a few TJ's & family lines - for some reason the name combination was popular around that time

I have no idea whether Sharyn's TJ is from Lancashire, England, or not - if you have the clues in the doco, then you have to go where the trail leads. There are a few families with 'TJ' s out of Lancs, I continually cross trails on....

TJB - seaman born abt 1844 worked east coast of Aust
TJB - my TJ b 1861 Liverpool/Lancashire of irish parents, literate - Came to Australia in a roundabout fashion, marriner, unionist - details from Marriage & death cert.
TJB - b about the same time in Qld Aust off irish immigrants, became Premier of Qld
TJB - b abt 1864 england - settled WA - family has similar names!- Unionist
TJBR - b abt 1876 Lancashire - Shary's TJ
TJB - born liverpool/lancashire, marriner to a big established dockworking family
TJB - born liverpool lancs, son of naval seaman lost at sea - don't know if he came to aust
TJB - born Eng/Ireland, settled in Victoria, Aust

Most of the red herrings I've followed trace back to Irish roots (they all seem to have moved on around the time of the fammine - 1840/45.  Keep in mind that about +-20yrs on they all have children that they name after themselves!

Good luck, K

[Dundee]

Hi Shaz,

To be an auctioneer in Queensland, Thomas would have to apply for a licence.  In trying to establish if he was who he said he was, have you checked for him in the Government gazettes?  Also, the Townsville Bulletin should be online sometime next year on the NLA site so keep that in mind if you don't get any further in the meantime.

The only thing thing that looks a bit odd about the BURNS family in Liverpool is that they had a labouring background.  Of course it is not impossible for Thomas to follow a different course, especially coming to a new country, but as a draper and auctioneer I would just expect to see his father in a trade.  I don't suppose his marriage cert gives his father's occupation or says who his first wife was?

Debra 

[Bryany]

Sharyn,
My Great gran-parents were Thomas Burns and Ellen Mary McBride from Glamorgan as my Grandmother on my Dads side was Elizabeth Catherine (1896) the sister of your Thomas Burns if you have found him?
The Brother, Stephen Burns had a son Stephen who died 1996 in Canada and we did receive a letter asking for descendents. I also know that the name BURNS was also spelt BYRNE/BYRNES and used by some of the family in this way.
Hope you pick this msg up soon and get back to me.

Bryany.