Euphemia Hynd

[Gaie]

Hello all

Phew!

First to Beans:  The 1851-1871 Census postings for James and Euphemia I gave appear to refer to James Beveridge and Euphemia Hynd, bearing in mind that the children shown correspond to the extracted parish records of births to this couple on the IGI and confirmed by Sancti on SP.  The children on the Censuses show the ages and the order of birth that correspond to Richard, Helen, James, John, Margaret, Alexander (the third), Euphemia, David, Robert (the younger) and Betsy or Elizabeth.  I could see no other family that showed the same correspondence.

Yes, there is another 1851 Census entry as you rightly found:

Crossgates
James Beveridge 37 Coal Miner Dunfermline
Euphemia 35 Dunfermline
Alexander 5 Aberdour
James 5mo Dunfermline

This is possibly the 1846 birth of the Alexander that Tom put in his first posting, and that has no parish record so far found.  However as Bill has now given us the parents' names for his Alexander there is this Census entry also:

Donibristle, Aberdour
Alexr 44 Coal Miner Dunfermline
Janet 37 Dunfermline
Walter 17 Coal Miner (Scholar) Dalgety
John 15 Coal Miner (Evening Scholar) Dalgety
Thomas 9 Scholar Aberdour
Margaret 7 Scholar Aberdour
Fullarton Malcolm (Nephew) 6 Scholar England
Alexr 4 Aberdour
George 2 Aberdour
David 11mo Aberdour

This entry also gives us a possible brother in law named George for Jane's death informant and also ties in with Sancti's first 1846 Alexander birth.

I've possibly found the 1851 Census for her second Alexander birth:
Maxhill Cottage, Kinross
Andrew 31 Ag Lab Cleish Kinross
Isabella 32 Arngask, Kinross
James 6 Scholar Cleish Kinross
Alexander 5 At Home Portmoak, Kinross
Helen B S  2 At Home Cleish
Isabella 2mo Kinross
Janet Haxton (it does say daughter even though surname is different) 12 Scholar Orwell.

The third Alexander birth to Peter and Jane Burns may be this one:
Argyle St, Perth
Peter 32 Joiner Kemback Fife
Jane 33 Andrews, St (presumably St Andrews)
Alexander 4 Perth
John 3 Perth
Christian 1 St Andrews

There is another Alexander aged 5 to a John and Isabella, with older and younger siblings, all born Dundee.

I think you need to find out where the American rellies got the information that their Alexander was born in 1846 to James Beveridge and Euphemia Hynd.

And Tom, I've looked at Orrocks/Orroks/etc in the Fife area for the last couple of days, but unless we know where Jemima/Jacobina Orrock was born and who her parents were, then we can't follow her line up.  At the moment I can't see anything to confirm her birth apart from the Census information that she was born in Dalgety about 1811.

If you want us to follow up any of these in later censuses just let us know!

Kind regards
Gaie

[Gaie]

Sorry, thought I was going to be timed out then!

Yes, Beans, I think it is reasonable to assume that the first confirmed Alexander born to James Beveridge and Euphemia Hynd died young between censuses.  I have in my tree a two couples that had three Williams each, the two older ones all dying within a year or two of birth.  Third time lucky...!
Gaie

[beansgram]

hi gaie the james beveridge ive been emailing has not replied yet. what i have that he originally sent me was alexanders birth 3-15-1846 at fordell he immigrated to the states and married sarah arbathnot in 1780 in allegheny county their first child euphemia was born in 1780 and that alexander died in january 1920.  my last email i asked if he had a copy of the death cert if not i will send for it.  the death would be registered with our vital statics for any death occuring after 1905.   beans

[beansgram]

hi everyone here is another twist to this one i was just on"rootsweb" searching trees and there is one on there that has this james beveridge married to euphemia hynd but this one has parents as john hynd and marion williamson.  so does anybody know which one is really married to this james.  the one listed here or the daughter of james hynd and helen penman  beans

[Bill Fraser]

Hi Folks,
Ref JEMIMA ORROCK, her parents were THOMAS ORROCK/ANN MORRIS.
JEMIMA died on 5th Jan 1891 at Golfdrum St, Dunfermline, widow of ALEXANDER BEVERIDGE, she was 79 and died of "Old Age" -No regular medical attendant. Informant was WILLIAM BEVERIDGE, son, present.
I have found ALEXANDER in the 1841 & 1851 Census, in the 1861 Census JEMIMA is listed as "Widow Alexander Beveridge, head, age 50, born Dalgety"
Bill

[tommacgregor]

Hello Bill,

That's excellent work and I'm sure will assist poor "Beans" no end.

Apart from the valuable information that you have found about the Beveridges and Orrocks, the name of the street, Golfdrum Street, Dunfermline really interests me, because it appears to have connections to my Livingstone family. When my Great-Great Grandfather, James Livingstone married at North Church, Dunfermline in 1851, he specifically stated that his lodgings were in Golfdrum. Now, did he mean Golfdrum Street or was that a suburb of Dunfermline? I really don't know, but it does help to "get a feel" for the subjet matter - wouldn't you agree?

Pam, the Moderator on RootsChat, has done me a great favour by merging many of my individual postings. That should help enormously. I felt terrible that she had to do so much work, but she is really a nice lady, and I think she knows how much I appreciate her help in these administrative matters.

Working with "DiddyMiller", I am managing to get a much sharper picture of the connections with our families. This hard-working lady and
Beans" now have concrete proof of the connections between our families through William Hepburn and Anne Birse, my Great-Great Grandparents. I'm beginning to feel like Methusalah, (if that's the spelling of the word!)

Beginning to feel a bit better than of late, and I promise everybody that I'll continue to keep taking the medication!

Kind regards,


Tom.

[tommacgregor]

Hello All,

I'm still trying to keep in with Pam, the Moderator's, good-books by ensuring that postings are inserted into the correct part of RootsChat - maybe I'll get a nice Easter Card for my trouble. It's more likely though that I'll get my ears boxed if I don't! I'm only kidding, Pam, I think you do a really great job.

Now that we're all sitting comfortably, let's begin. You may recall that in a posting shown above, dated Thursday, 14th February, 2008, I mentioned Helen Penman who married Archibald Wilson. In more recent postings, I specifically indicated that I would be returning to the "linking exercise" that I've been slogging away at for some time now.

As most of us know from bitter experience, we sometimes come to a crossroads during our researching and simply don't know what option to take. Indeed during the past few days, Sancti, Monica and I have been looking at that kind of situation and I was trying to make what I thought made - perhaps - sound sense. It still remains in the too hard basket for now, so, once again, I'll put it on the back-burner as we all must do occasionally.

What I wanted to work on was what I had in my "rough files" which is a little bit of software that I dreamed up some considerable time ago. You might prefer to call it Tom's Unsolved Mysteries File! What I was asking myself was this: Are you satisfied that the first wife of Adam Cook, Helen Wilson, was the person that you think she was? My honest answer was, no, I still feel a bit uneasy about her parentage. For the past couple of days I have been doing all sorts of things to see whether or not I can lose my Doubting Thomas attitude.

As I see it, Archibald Wilson, who was born around 1701 at Tillicoultrie in Clackmannanshire married Helen Penman on the 7th April, 1722 at nearby Culross in Perthshire, (I believe that it's now in Fife, but correct me if I'm wrong!). After a bit of a struggle I came across the following individual's who appear to be their children. Gee! I've still got that suspicious streak that I had as a young copper. No wonder that I was in the Law Courts most days!
Helen Wilson born August 1727 at Tillicoultrie, which tends to make sense if he took his bride back to where he had grown up. Archibald Wilson christened 19th April, 1730 at Tillicoultrie, William Wilson christened 27th June, 1732 at Tillicoultry, Jean Wilson christened 11th May, 1735 at Tillicoultry and Isabel Wilson christened 18th June, 1738 at Tillicoultry.

O.K., I'm prepared to give a cautious nod on that part. Now the harder bit. Who was the Helen Penman that married Archibald Wilson on 7th April, 1722 at Culross. Well, Helen does not appear to have been born in Clackmannanshire. However, she does appear to have been born not too far away from there, because I believe that she was born at Torryburn, just over the border in Fife.

Since yesterday I've been hammering away at trying to find out just who Helen Penman's parents were given all the previous details. Time and time again I come to the conclusion that her parents were George Penman and his wife, Jean McConachie. By the way, that Surname has many spelling options attached to it! However, when I show you the list of children that I've scraped together, you may feel that we are getting nearer a solution: Margaret Penman christened 24th July, 1686 at Torryburn, John Penman christened 10th November, 1688 at Torryburn, Helen Penman christened 10th August, 1701 at Torryburn, James Penman christened 4th March, 1693, George Penman christened 27th September, 1690, Elizabeth Penman, christened 29th December, 1695 and Jannet Penman christened 26th September, 1698.

Well, lads and lassies, on the face of it, I appear to have made that important breakthrough in forging a link from the Cooks, (my Grandmother's ancestors) to the Penman's.
Hold everything though. There are many researchers out there who are just as painstaking as I am, and would want me to go that extra mile to give details about the Penmans. I can understand that, and will certainly do my best. A good place to start would be with the marriage of George Penman to a lady with a familiar Surname. Yes, you've guessed it - Isabel PATERSON.

Catch up with me on my next posting and I'll tell you all about!

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tommacgregor]

Hello All,

As promised I am going to start my onslaught on the Penman family (with all due respect, of course!) I considered that I should start with the connection to the Paterson's since we have already spent some considerable time researching that family.

George PENMAN was born c.1696 at Torryburn in Fife and married Isabel Paterson (Patersone) who also hailed from Torryburn. They had the following children:

George Penman christened 23rd May, 1714 at Torryburn, Fife.
James Penman christened 21st October, 1716 at Torryburn, Fife
Alexander Penman christened 30th November, 1718 at Torryburn, Fife.
Isabell Penman christened 5th February, 1721 at Torryburn, Fife.
John Penman christened 19th May, 1723 at Torryburn, Fife.
Richard Penman christened 30th January, 1726 at Torryburn, Fife.
Robert Penman christened 29th November, 1728 at Torryburn, Fife.
David Penman born 1st June, 1731 at Torryburn, Fife
William Penman born 6th May, 1734 at Torryburn, Fife.

While talking about the Penman's of Torryburn, I thought that I would remind you of another prominent Fife family, the BEVERIDGE's and mention that an Elizabeth Beveridge married Henry PENMAN at Torryburn on the 7th August, 1756. They had the following children:

Alexander Penman, christened 11th September, 1753 at Torryburn, Fife.
Henry Penman christened 7th August, 1756 at Torryburn, Fife.
Alexander Penman, christened 11th September, 1757 at Torryburn, Fife.

I would suggest that you get hold of a pile of blank Ancestral Charts and insert the above information because, over the next few days we will start to see quite a number of connections start to appear - those connections are quite significant for those people who are researching this Fife family.

In my next posting I will be moving just a few miles away to that lovely old town, Dunfermline.

Kind Regards,


Tom.

[tommacgregor]

Hello Again,

To those people researching their Scottish ancestors from countries such as Australia, Canada and the USA, I know the difficulty that you experience in pin-pointing different locations in the ancient Kingdom of Fife. Many of my ancestors came from this neck of the woods, and because I was born there and spent my early years there, I have the benefit of intimate knowledge of the towns and villages there.

Smack bang in the middle of this old kingdom lies Loch Leven, (where Mary, Queen of Scots was imprisoned for a while), and so, I want you to imagine that Loch Leven is the hub of a wheel. Due south of the loch is the Royal Burgh of Dunfermline and further south of that town lies Inverkeithing, (not far from the motorway that spans the Firth of Forth. To the west of Inverkeithing lies Torryburn and that lovely picture-postcard town, Culross. To the west of those places lies Clackmannanshire. It is this region that we are currently looking at.

Going right back to the year 1603 we find that a John Penman was born at Dunfermline and he married a Helen Samuel. They married on the 25th November, 1626 at Dunfermline. Two of their children were John Penman, christened 1st November, 1629 at Dunfermline and his brother, William Penman, christened on the 16th September, 1632 at Dunfermline.

Now, it's important that you insert the above details into the Ancestral Chart because we find that the above William Penman, born in September, 1632 married a certain Lilias Kedglie on the 21st June, 1655 at Dunfermline.

What we will see on my next posting is how there was a "migration" from the old town of Dunfermline to a place that I hold very dear, Auchterderran. It was to this place that I was taken immediately after my birth in the Lang Toun of Kirkcaldy.

It is these "migrations" that sometimes cause a certain amount of problems to people outside Scotland, especially when trying to trace their ancestors. I will do my very best to acquaint you with some of these locations in my narrative.

Kind Regards,


Tom.