Link: History of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland

[Christopher]

A man died this week, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who stared man's inhumanity to man in the face and wrote about it in his books. I wonder what he would write about these people.

Hello mosstrooper,

I'm not certain what you mean by "these people." You're referring to ordinary working people who are similar to those who are to be found throughout the British Isles (or throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom). Large numbers of them have fought side by side with their Catholic neighbours in two World Wars and others have been proud to wear the green jersey and play Rugby for the Irish team. 

Ruth Dudley Edwards, born and brought up in Dublin, wrote a book called "The Faithful Tribe: an intimate portrait of the loyal institutions" which was shortlisted for the Channel 4 political book prize.  www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/RDEreviews/IrTimes_22Sept_07.html

Susan McKay, author of "Northern Protestants: An Unsettled People" which was published by Blackstaff in 2000, has also tackled the subject. www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0306/1204675377509.html

Christopher

[mosstrooper]

Yes, I remember when Black People could fight in two world wars beside their White counterparts, but back home could not travel on the same bus, or eat in the same Restaurant, or go to the same school too.

[Christopher]

White people can usually travel on the same bus and eat in the same restaurant
unless they're wearing a football top indicating which team they support

[sancti]

You're correct Christopher

Who wants to sit beside a white Blackpool fan 

[chrispaton]

What were the Scottish Soldiers doing in Ireland ?

Breadalbane's Fencibles, one of the units sent over, was mainly there on prisoner escort duty, arriving shortly after the rebellion in 1798. The story is a lot more interesting than that though!

My four greats grandfather was in the second battalion, and initially I thought he had been amongst the Irish bound lot. In fact, half of the battalion refused to travel to Ireland, and never went, and from research at both the NAS and at Kew I found out that William Paton was amongst those who refused to go. The Fencibles were designed to defend home territory, and to allow the army to go off and fight wars, not to go off and do the fighting themselves. A lot of Fencibles were just as influenced by the same revolutionary thoughts as those in Ireland - they were mainly Presbyterian after all. Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man" and other titles were well read by them. Breadalbane's Fencibles was a Perthshire created regiment, and Perth is where the United Scotsmen were also formed.

The following from George Penny's "Traditions of Perth" describes Lady Breadalbane's reaction to being told where to go by the Fencibles who decided to stay put!

"These troops having been only raised as Scotch Fencibles, when disturbances broke out in Ireland, no argument could induce them to serve in that country. Lady Breadalbane, who had taken great interest in these proceedings, was so incensed at their obstinancy, that she is reported to have declared, that she would raise a regiment that would march to the devil if she desired it. A third regiment was accordingly embodied to serve in Ireland. By this time the new doctrines of the Rights of Man had been extensively spread through the country, and produced an important change in the public mind. The officers who had formerly been in the service, now found it a different business to deal with the men. They had acquired a knowledge of what was their due, and courage to demand it. One of the battalions of Breadalbane Fencibles, had not received their arrears of pay and bounty: on the morning on which they were to march, the regiment was drawn up in front of the George inn; when ordered to shoulder arms, each man stood immovable! The order was repeated, but still not a man stirred. Upon enquiring into the cause of this extraordinary conduct, the officer in command was informed, that not having received their arrears, the men were determined not to leave the place till these were settled. This was a dilemma as great as it was unexpected. The paymaster had no funds at his disposal, and the Earl of Breadalbane was not at hand. After much argument and entreaty, they were prevailed upon to march to Kinross; the officer pledging himself that every thing would be settled there on the return of an express from the Earl. A mutiny broke out some time afterwards in the first battalion; in consequence of which two of the men were shot, by order of a general court martial."

I've often wonderd why I never felt as 'loyal' as certain so called 'loyalists' back home in Ulster - probably because I am at heart a very old fashioned pre-1798 Presbyterian (minus the Calvinism though!)! Go on Wully...!

For more info on the Fencibles and their time in Ireland, my website at http://chrispatonscotland.tripod.com/id37.html has William's full story.

Chris

[chrispaton]

Double post

[mosstrooper]

Very well researched Chris, as usual things are not always as Black & White, or in this case Orange, as they at first seem.

James.

[chrispaton]

Tell me about it! My wife is a Catholic from Kilkenny, I'm a Presbyterian from Ulster - she has family members who fought for both the original IRA and the British Army (including two brothers who were great uncles, one in each at the the same time), and I have two great great grandfathers who were grand masters in the Orange Order, one in Belfast, the other in Coleraine, and a great grandfather in charge of a Royal Black Institution in Glasgow.

So in our house I shout "no surrender" at my wife, she throws holy water over me, then we sit down, have a cup of tea, and talk about what actually matters in the world...! lol

I think the real point is you can't live your lives because of what your ancestors did - to be blunt, they're dead, and the world has moved on! There's a great line in a Scottish Gaelic song from a band called Runrig entitled "Ard":

Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no ŕgh...

The spark in your soul at the centre of your being
Is larger and stronger than any government or king...

That's going on my headstone!

Chris

[sancti]

Would the soldiers sent over to Ireland at that time been there long enough to feel the need to join an organisation like the Orange Order. I always found it strange that they should align themselves with William the 3rd more than 90 years after his death.

Chris, why does your wife throw holy water over you for shouting the last words of JamesConnolly