Victualler

[newburychap]

I have wills from the mid 1700s of victuallers. I know what a licensed victualler is - but what about a victualler.   Is this a publican/innkeeper in the days before the 'licensed victualler' label became fashionable? Or is it some sort of grocer?

[Ecneps]

Hi,

Thought this had been covered in the posting about licensed victuallers when someone explained the difference and I think you also replied to the post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,282412.30.html (see reply #10)

From one occupation website:
Victualler: A Seller of food and drink

From another:
 Victualler      1) A tavern keeper - see Licensed Victualler. 2) Provided army, navy, or merchant ships with food supplies


Barbara 

[behindthefrogs]

A victualler was also the local name for a butcher in some parts of Ireland.

David

[newburychap]

Thought this had been covered in the posting about licensed victuallers when someone explained the difference and I think you also replied to the post

But is there a difference? Certainly not always.

I guess I am looking for the use of the term in a particular time period and in a particular place (Newbury, Berks).  Around 1750 there are a few wills of victuallers; at this time I cannot imagine there was enough business to make the military supplier option viable in Newbury - though the militia were housed in beerhouses and inns, so the two could be combined in that way.

I suspect the wills are of keepers of inns or victualling houses. By 1828 these are certainly different enough establishements to be named separately (along with alehouses) in the Alehouse Act of that year. I would guess that an inn offered overnight accomodation and a victualling house was essentially a licensed restaurant.

One issue with wills is that there is an element of self-promotion in the description of occupations given in wills - I suspect that there may be some alehouse keepers calling themselves victuallers. Only one of the wills mentions a pub - the Globe, a large inn, in which one of the items being bequeathed is located. So the legator is perhaps the landlord/innkeeper. It is unlikely that any of them would own the premises as most would be owned by one of the local breweries or the other big pub landlords in the town - the corporation and local charities (one of these owned the Globe).

So my query is perhaps to see it anyone has any idea when the term licensed victualler became commonplace. Presumably it was the result on one of the many licensing acts - but which?? The 1828 act could well be the one as it seems to define the basic licensing system that was modified by numerous acts over the next 150 years.

Has anyone come across the term 'licensed victualler' before say, 1850?

[newburychap]

Has anyone come across the term 'licensed victualler' before say, 1850?

No responses in 6 weeks (wish I had noted how many had read this thread before I posted so I could tell how many have read it since).

I shall take it that none of those who have read it have come across a licensed victualler pre-1850. A fairly small sample but nevertheless some indication that the term did not come into common use until after that date.

So my 1750s victuallers look ever more like publicans.

Thread read 195 times at time of posting.

[CaroleW]

Hi

I think you have answered your own question.  The number of times read says it all - 193 people have no opinion to offer (I have deducted the 2 replies already received)

Edit - just noticed that the counter is now at 207

[haliared]

hi newburychap,
Have just checked my tree (took some time!), and in 1841 I had three people listed in different parts of the country as victualler. In 1851 two were dead    but the one who was still there in 1851 was then listed as a publican, then in 1861 as a licensed victualler.
Hope this has helped you,
Best wishes, haliared

[Trees]

I now have "47 " pubs on our tree but the earliest licenses i can find are in  the Quarter sessions book 1787-1800, held at Oxford Record Office, but there are property deeds for some of the houses going back much further than that one house originally was called The Jesus House and was set up by monks to provide rest and refreshment to pilgrims
Trees

[behindthefrogs]

There are a number of factors which affected the situation which you are trying to examine.

Firstly at the end of the 16th century the number of taverns allowed in a town was only one except in about forty towns prescribed by parliament.  These were of course were distinct from inns which provided food and accommodation.

The second gin act of 1736 required the retailer to pay £50 for a licence and a duty of £1 on every gallon sold.  These licences were restricted to victuallers.

It was the beerhouse act of 1830 which allowed any householder who paid the poor rate to retail beer and cider on payment of 2 guineas.  When this act was repealed in 1869 many of the beerhouse keepers started to call themselves licensed victuallers.

David