Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican

[telnorm]

Hi Geoff, welcome to the fold. As you may have already picked this up from previous postings I will quickly run thru my connection. My grt grt grdad was george and my grt grdad was William d. 1908 and  my grandad william b. 1887 to william and maggie. My dad was " wait for it" another william. He was born in 1912 and died in 1944. My mother remarried in 1946 and we seem to have lost touch with most Crowther relatives since then. I remember having a cousin and uncle both called Frank.
Just 18 months ago all I knew was that George was at the " OLD HOUSE AT HOME". since then with the imput from Ben, Paul and Gary plus others, I have found out so much interesting and colourful stuff and with the latest "viking" news from Paul it just gets better. It is good to see another photo of the family ( john) as it all helps with the bigger picture. I was born on the gipton estate in 1943
and strangely my mother (  maiden name Elizabeth Rushworth) also went to St Saviours. I knew the wykebecks well when I was a kid. We used to play at monkey bridge, do you remember it?.
I have a few certificates i.e. william and maggies marriage, George and Sarah Anns marriage and if you want copies I can email them to you. My email is        (*). all the best for the new year Regards Terry Crowther

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page:  http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php

[Geoff Crowther]

Hi Terry
Thanks for the offer of those copies. I'll email you shortly.
Just wanted to put this note on so all could see it. I only started my research at the beginning of Dec 09 but I'm really enjoying it.
You mention Sarah, George's wife. She's referred to as both Sarah Turner and Sarah Dension, causing onfusion when reserching her history, and I saw somwhere that she married using her mother's maiden name ie Denison. I couldn't help thinking that's a really strange thing to do! However, I found a much more plausible explanation a couple of weeks back and, whilst I can't remember where I saw it (in someone else's tree on ancestry.co.uk I think) it makes sense.

Sarah's mum, Sarah Ann Davy, born 1800 in Leeds, married Matthew DENISON.  Matthew died in 1838. Note that Sarah (George's wife) was born about 1929. Sarah then married James Arundel and he had kids as did the two of them together. By 1851 Sarah Ann and James had separated and Sarah Ann was living "in sin" with Robert TURNER.
In 1851 James Arundel returns as a carrier, calling himself Halden, Aldon or Holden with kids including the one he had with Sarah Ann, John.
By 1861 Sarah Ann was alone, as a pauper.

Whilst I don't have evidence for all that stuff it does fit with the Denison/Turner confusion. Sarah married George in 1850, at which time her mum was living with Robert Turner. It's reasonable to suppose that they were using the name Turner to protect Sarah Ann's reputation and lend an air of respectability to the family. But, technically, Sarah's proper maiden name was Denison, the name of her late father, Matthew. Therefore, there's actually no mystery any more; rather Sarah's name never was, legally, Turner, but, in fact, Denison.
I like the story, and the colour it adds to the story of Sarah Ann Davy.
By the way, when I get around to visiting Leeds I plan to go and have a look at Beckett St cemetary, which seems to be the final resting place of several Crowthers. Can anyone give me the location? Will my sat nav find Beckett St.?
Cheers
Geoff

[telnorm]

Hi Geoff, thank you for your suggestion re the mystery of Sarahs name. Its certainly quite a complex explanation and I will have to print it off and sit in a quiet corner somewhere to peruse. I cant wait for Ben to see this as we have spent a lot of time seeking the answer to this one.

re Becketts st cemetery. I have a map supplied by Paul and produced by Gary showing the grave positions in the cemetery.It is excellent and will save you a lot of time looking. I can email this to you.
The cemetery is opposite St James hosp on Becketts st. The hosps is well signed but parking could be a problem.

Looking thru some of my stuff I have found an entry on the 1871 census for Enoch. You have probably got this but just in case not I will show it below.

17 Stainburn sq.
David Enoch . 42 hawker  born london shoreditch
Hannah Enoch 42                "     Cumberland
David               15 mechanic       london
Sarah               10                      leeds
Hannah              8                         
Mary Ann            5                       
Ellen                   3

regards Terry

Happy new year also to Ben , Paul, Gary and any other Crowther/ Johnsons

[PaulSlo]

Happy new year to all as well.
          Tonight my son - Alexander - and I were in a restaurant in Ljubljana (Slovenia) talking about our ancestors,etc. He's the first of my line of Crowthers not to be born within a 20 mile radius of Leeds-Bradford. He was born in Ljubljana. Hopefully there will be a new line of the family who grow up in Slovenia, and imagine themselves (through creative misinterpretation) to be Leeds Vikings.
           The picture of John Crowther is wonderful. I was amazingly struck by how his eyes and mouth reminded me of my Dad. My wife pointed out that his ears also looked like Dad's.
            One nice little detail that Geoff's messages have explained is something I raised in a previous post. My Dad told me that at Maggie Mackenzie's funeral one of the sons punched her brother because he'd never cared about her when she was alive. I always thought this was Benjamin, but I remember my Dad correcting me on this.
             I couldn't recall  which brother he said it was. But when I read Geoff's post, I remembered that it was 'Uncle John'. Don't know if my Dad actually met him, but he certainly knew of him !
             It was great to hear of Maggie's pugilistic prowess as well. It would be wonderful if people on this thread could contribute other anecdotes - no matter how small. The Crowthers were modest working people whose stories deserve to be told and preserved...
             As further details emerge about the deep ancestry stuff, I'll post it.
             Best wishes,
             Paul
           

[Geoff Crowther]

Hi Paul
Well, I'm pleased to have been able to jog your memory and I'm sure my Dad will be amused when I tell him it was his Dad who thumped Maggie's brother at the funeral.
As you say, it's these colourful stories of simple, hardworking folk that enrich the history of our family. I'm indebted to you for expanding my knowledge.
Best wishes to you and the Slovenian Crowthers.
Cheers
Geoff

[GLM66]

Happy New Year to all you Vikings!  (Paul, Ben,Terry and Geoff)

I have just read Geoff's comments on Sarah Ann Turner/Dennison and her mother Sarah and hope to have some news to add to his theory soon.

Best Wishes,    Gary

[GLM66]

Hi there,

I think this will be only relevant to Geoff because it is mainly about Hannah Enoch and her family.

At one time I had a lot of info on the Enoch family but when I found out she was not a direct relation to me I deleted a lot of it, but I will tell you what I remember.

Hannah's mother was from Whitehaven in Cumbria
Her father was described as an image maker etc, but I remember finding out that he was actually a Sculptor (no connection to taking photos) David came from Shoreditch in London born in 1829 I think.

Their children  don't seem to have been very healthy because a lot of them died, a quick search of Beckett Street Cemetery records will help you there Geoff.

I suspected that Hannah may have been Jewish but I later found that she was baptised in a C of E Church (can't remember which one).

All the Enoch family are buried in Beckett Street cemetery.

Hope this helps you in some way Geoff.

Best wishes

Gary

[Geoff Crowther]

Hi Gary
Good to be in touch and thanks very much for this
Might explain my artistic flair!
Cheers
Geoff

[GLM66]

In reply to Geoff's theory on our Sarah Ann Dennison's Mother Sarah...

Geoff mentions a Sarah Davey

Sarah Davey Married Mathew Dennison 25th July 1820 at Leeds Parish Church, Matthew Dennison died in 1838.

Sarah (Davey) Denison Married James Arundel Dec 16 1839 at Leeds Parish Church

The only problem with this theory is that the father of our Sarah Ann Dennison was called ROBERT Dennison, we know this from her marriage to George Crowther.
And our Sarah Ann's mother Sarah, was already living with Robert Turner in the June 7th 1841 Census.

So the Sarah Davey Geoff mentions is not the person we are looking for!

Best wishes

Gary