Henry SMITH and Dinah Ellen GRAY

[Chezp]

Hi Deb.
No I haven't found any further link to Dinah/Ellen in 1891 census.  Certainly not as Smith . They seem to disappear.

 i've found on website seraphin-angel website she has Dinah/Ellen widow of Henry Smith married FRancis Elliott m 1883. That's a year after henry;s death. Didn't think to look for them under Elliott.

Chez

[An65]

Been offline AGES so glad to be back, and what a lovely suprise to see this thread.

Chez I think you and I have chatted before about this, Im Panderoona aka Seraphim Angel.

Now another person tracing these Smiths believes that Henry was a son of William And Ann Smith which would make him one of my Smiths, as my ancesters were Christopher Gray and Maria Smith (who was d/o William Smith and Ann nee Elliott).

Bathwell Smith was baptised at Cold Higham (near Grimscote Nthants) 21.06.1790 s/o Thomas & Nancy, according to Terence Lees book.

Wife Charlotte was born cir 1804 Weedon Nthants. Now she according to the old folklore married a Matthew Smith - possibly the same person as Bathwell, possibly someone else.

Now I tracked down Matthew Smiths marriage to Charlotte Elliott:

m.12.09.1831 Loughborough Nthants, Matthew had previously been married to Eleanor Smith who was buried at Wigston Two Steeples. He married Eleanor 05.02.1816 also at Loughborough.

Now according to the old folklore, Matthew Smith was one of the sons of Jim Smith of Buckminster who was married to one Seperata Boss. Another child was William Smith who married Ann Elliott and produced Maria who married Chris Gray.

William Smith and Ann (Elliott) both spent their latter years at the Wong, Horncastle, and both were buried at Horncastle in the 1870s.

One would expect to find Charlotte Elliott who married Bathwell/Matthew Smith to be related to the Elliotts of Willoughby, Notts which produced Ann Elliott. But I havent found a link yet.

For sure, Dinah/Ellen Gray was Christopher and Marias daughter. Christopher was killed in 1869 at Wrawby by Brigg after being hit by a runaway horse and gig during Brigg Fair. His wife Maria was buried in 1875 at Heckington.

All this family appear to have ties to the horse trade, indeed my 2xgrt and 1xgrt grandparents had a stables located in Frieston Road, Boston (Lincs).

Now Abraham Gray was son of Charles Gray and Lydia Elliott who was definatley of the Elliott of Willoughby Notts family, making her close kin to Maria Smith.

This Charles Gray was the son of Charles and Charlotte. And I have lately found trace of a marriage:

An extract of a marriage dated 28.05.1804 at St James, Bristol, was copied to Meldreth, Cam in 1830 - the marriage of Charles Gray and Charlotte Hirss.

(what her real surname was I havent worked out yet but thats almost certainly innaccurate).

All of this lends credence to Christopher Gray being close kin of Charles (the elder). His baptism records him as being of Thurlby By Bourne in 1815, s/o Thomas and Charlotte. I find no other trace of a Thomas and Charlotte romany baptism and I am beginning to think it should read Charles....

Of course it could be that one Thomas Gray did briefly liase with the same Charlotte - and there are two candidates for that. Both of those confusingly appear to be sons of Fowk Gray, one being bapt in 1772 and the other in 1798... Still trying to fathom them out!!

Hope this answers a few queries though.

[An65]

PS another source gives Charlotte as w/o Matthew Smith and she is a Boiling/Boyling/Boylen.

IGI shows up Charlotte Boylen, d/o George & Franette c.26.05.1811 Eagle Lincs.
This makes her d/o George Boyling who married Tranette/Franette/Trinity Boswell, and GEORGE later marrying Joyce Tansey/Tanzy/Tansy.

George and Joyce settled at Nettleham Lincs, he dying in 1873 and she in 1885. George is a presumed (and reputed) son of Caesar Boyling.

Caesar Boyling (var) married 1 Mary Royston 1768 Boston Lincs and 2 Sarah Smith 1780 Wrawby (by Brigg) Lincs.

Caesar known to have had by Mary:

Sam (1769 Boston) Tom (1775 Coventry) Ambrose (1777) Coventry and by Sarah:

John b.cir 1781 Wolverhampton and Sarah c.1784 Spalding who married Zachariah Boswell in 1809 Kirton In Lindsay.

By Joyce Tansey George is known to have had Salome Ellen Boyling c.1823 Scampton Lin who married William Gray c.1822 Ancaster s/o Wm Gray who married Tabitha Smith.

[Chezp]

Hi An65.

Yes, I think we have spoken somewhere before - to one of you at least!! 

I'm in a bit of a mess but I've had some great help so far - Rosie and Deb are brilliant and then I remade contact with Jo too so this forum is certainly worth joining.

You've supplied a lot of names and info which I'll go through (it all looks a bit daunting but I'll write it out in tree form, I find it easier that way!). 

One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching  and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?

ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith

I think they were both born 1842 according to one census, Henry was because it is on his grave,  but I suppose with big families it might be possible might it? If Henry was born 1842 but he had an older sister Maria who married young then maybe she could have had a daughter born the same year as him.

Would this suggest my Henry is not the same Henry son of William and Ann?

Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).

Chez

[Chezp]

Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention.

Ohh I'm getting dizzy
Chez

[An65]

Hi An65.


One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching  and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?

ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith


Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).

Chez

Yes that is correct - that hypothesis is that Dinah married her uncle Henry. Maria Smith was born in 1817 at Willoughby On The Wolds, Notts, and married Christopher in 1836 at Rauceby Lincs.

As for Charlotte and Matthew aka Bathwell, Im pretty sure that is accurate as well.


you also mentioned:
"Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention."

You have to remember most Romanies dont know where they were born so would hazard a guess. It also depends on what the enumerator asked them. There is all the difference in the world between "where were you born" and "where are you from".

[mongojoby]

An65, do you have any idea what kind of evidence there is that his Henry was the son of William and Ann Smith, as
all the stuff that has come out on here all seems to point to Henry being the daughter of Charlotte Smith? 

Aside from his children frequently being found with Abraham and Harriet (Smith) Gray's immediate family (which surely suggests a closer relationship then the much more distant one Henry would have with them if he was the son William and Ann), I think Rosie's find that names three of his sons as nephews of a Sarah Smith, 'born' Scredington around the same age as Barthwell and Charlotte's daughter provides pretty strong evidence. 

Out of interest, would it have been acceptable for a gypsy woman to take more then one partner?  I'd kind of assumed that, that would be the prerogative of men only, and it would make a nice change to see women being treated equally in the past!

Regards, Jo

[An65]

Back in those times yes, it was extremely common.

I agree it seems more likely Henry belongs with Bathwells family, and as far as I know there is no direct evidence to suggest otherwise.
I do think there is a strong link between Bathwell and William Smith as well mind you. Just cant prove it (yet).

[An65]

regarding polygamy:

three of the daughters of No Name Heron - Millia, Eliza and Uri demonstrate this:
Millia married Pyramus Gray and stayed with him for life.
Eliza married first Jack (John Budd) Gray (brother of Pyramus) and later Oseri Gray his cousin.
Uri married first the same Jack Gray and later Leonard Printall.

Jack (John Budd) Gray was married many times, to Uri and Eliza, and also to Maria Boswell AND her daughter Harriet Williams, and lived out his days after transportation with one Frances Dowlen.