Author Topic: Granshaw origins  (Read 9160 times)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Granshaw origins
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 12 March 19 16:36 GMT (UK) »
As of our private correspondance last summer Mervyn, I would certainly agree with you that Jacques Joseph Quatenyie does seem a more likely prospect for the unnamed legitimised child of Jean Jaques Grassart and Mary Elizabeth Cartigny, and concede I was unaware of this child, with the baptism being recorded under a variable spelling of the mother's surname.

I would just point out though that my research into this family was as part of a wider study of Spitalfields Huguenots, looking into a great many families, and the assumption of Thomas's place within that family was not the main focus of my work, and from my own point of view was neither particularly important or significant, though of course appreciate its signifance to his descendants, and regret if it was not made clear enough, and I concede it wasn't, that his place in the family tree was an assumption on my part, based on the fact to date it has been impossible to positively identify a baptism for Thomas. As Jean Jaques was the grandson of a Thomas, and his eldest brother was also named Thomas,  it seemed reasonable to posit that he could have chosen that name for one of his own sons. With the existance of an unnamed legitimised child, the London Thomas seemed a very likely prospect at the time. In addition to that was the coincidence of Jean Jacques Grassart marrying at the Huguenot Church in Tournoi to Margeuritte Dumme, a on 19 July 1772, exactly seven days before Thomas was also married, in England, on 26 July 1772 at St Dunstan's.

The only real info on Thomas's arrival in London comes from his great-great granddaughter, Elizabeth Granshaw, b.1874 daughter of Thomas George Granshaw & Francis Jane Lee, an inmate of La Providence, The French Charity Hospital from 1934 to 1938. Her petition for entry gave the following details of her French descent: '[on] My mother's side; I have been told by my parents my Father's Grandfather was brought to England when a boy about four years at the time of the French Revolution.'

As the legitimised son of Jean Jacques Grassart must have been born between his first wife's death in 1755 and his remarriage to Elizabeth Cartigny in 1759, he would have been aged 3-7 when the family fled to England in 1762, so that seemed to fit well too, though again as noted in our private correspondence, I did have misgivings as it would make Thomas seventeen at the oldest at the time of his marriage. This would be highly unusual if true, as the Huguenots didn't generally go in for young marriages, more often they were in their mid to late twenties when they wed.

In the course of our correspondance I suggested, alternatively, that he might be the Thomas Grassart baptised  21/7/1748 as son to Thomas Grassart [QUIEVY/BMS [1737-1749] 1 MI 309 R 002 130/144] and was perhaps bought to England as a very young child with Jean Jacques' sister, Marie Barbe GRASSART (B.1720) when she came to England in September 1750 with her husband Jean Philipe Delporte. Young children certainly were smuggled out by aunts and uncles as this is how my own most recent Huguenot ancestor came to England, around the same time, 1753.
 
The problem still remains though is if Jean Jacques and Elizabeth did have all four of their children in London, as the records state, why is there plentiful evidence of the other three in later records there, but none at all for Jacques Joseph Cartigny/Grassart? Did he die in infancy in London? If so where is the burial record? If, alternatively, he died in infancy in France, then Thomas could still in fact be the fourth child on record with them in London, regardles of if he was an actual son or nephew to Jean Jaques. Then there is the possibility at least Jacques Joseph and Thomas are one and the same person, and Thomas was used as his alias, which would explain the lack of any records for him in London, under his baptismal name.

Anyway I add this for clarification, particularly if my earlier posts lacked clarity and had somewhat muddied the waters for Thomas's descendants. I look foward to further discoveries regarding this family, which will hopefully paint a clearer picture than currently exists.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline MervynG

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Re: Granshaw origins
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 12 March 19 22:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard

Thank you for your further thoughts which, as ever, are very much appreciated. Two strands now follow for me:

1/ In an effort to properly exclude Jean Jacques Grassart/Gransar from the line, I am now in the process of trying to locate the source of the reference in Arthur Henry Hirsch’s 1928 book The Huguenots of South Carolina as it mentions Jean Jacques Gransar and has the mysterious reference MS Col. Doc. S. C., XX. 261. I assumed it was Colonial Document South Carolina but I can’t find anything beyond Volume 41 1734-35. Do you know what it is and where it is to be found?

You suggested that a Petition to the Board of Trade was declined but according to Hirsch, “Help was given them and they united with the settlers already situated in Hillsboro Township.” That said, conversely and like you too, I see some Grassart/Gransar records in London after this.

Is the document where you see 4 children the Petition? I realise the Petition reads, ‘Jean Jacques Gransar sa femme et quatres Enfans” but according to my records Jean Jacques Grassart had 11 children by two of his 3 wives. By 1765 at least 5 had died, leaving 6 for whom I have no death records:
Anne Reine G 27/9/1751- Quiévy France (who married Armand Joseph Proye 1776) travelled to London
Jacques Joseph G 17/8/58- Quiévy France
Twin Marie Joseph G 15/3/1760- Quiévy France &
Twin Marie Thérèse G 15/3/1760- Quiévy France
Anne Élisabeth G (Gransar) 16/6/1762- London
Élisabeth G (Gransart) 24/10/1764- Bapt at the home of Jacob Bourdillon London

So, did two die before the 1765 petition, or is there a different Jean Jacques who went to South Carolina? Or what? I have been in touch with the Professor who provided the preface to the new edition of Hirsch’s book and to a student of his who has researched the later, scattered and smaller New Bordeaux Huguenots as well as a Boston based professor who wrote on the same subject. I am hoping that any responses they may send provide some South Carolina information which may help see if they went and who went.

So I am inclined to still believe that the Jean Jacques trail is a false one and it is more likely to be that Thomas is the correct ancestor. But I’d like to be able to understand why Jean Jacques, a sister and some of his children floated between Quiévy and London at the same time as a more distant cousin Thomas (great grandson of a brother of Jean Jacques grandfather!)

2/ Who are the Blariau’s (Blarieux/Blariaux) and where do they come from. I can see that a Susanne Blariau was one of 5 children of Jacques Jean Blarieux and Lousie Troufé:
Susanne 9/12/1753-19/2/1850)
Hélène Blarieux 19/1/1756-
Louise Blarieux 17/1/1760-
Élizabeth Blarieux 11/8/1762-
Isaac Blarieux 12/4/1765-)

There is a suggestion that Jacques Jean (surely its Jean Jacques anyway?) was born in 1740 in Cappel, Moselle in France. But that would make him 13 when he had his first daughter Susanne. Also I have checked all the records in Cappel and can find no Blariau/eux records at all from 1720 onwards. I am also looking at Binche in Hainaut Provence in Belgium as that has also been mentioned as the Blariau home area but again nothing found yet.

So who are they and who are the Troufés?

Offline MervynG

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Re: Granshaw origins
« Reply #20 on: Friday 22 March 19 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard,

I've just unearthered another petition where Jean Jacques Gransart sa femme and 6 enfans try to go to Nova Scotia:

115 names are listed on a petition referred to in the Order of Council on 28 May 1762 aiming to go to Nova Scotia. In amongst these are Jean Jacques Gransar sa femme six enfants. They have no idea if any went to anywhere in US. Reference Vol 17 of Colonial Office Papers. (Proceedings of the Huguenot Society of London, Vol. V: pgs180-1)

But in a list dated 22 November 1763 (18 months later) of 173 refugees about to depart Plymouth under Jean Louis Gibet, there are none of the above people. Reference Vol 29 pp212-214 of Colonial Office Papers.

In Hirsch’s book he mentions 371 people settling in Hillsboro in 1764. Reference Vol 29 p375 f of Colonial Office Papers.

He goes on to mention the first group embarking at Plymouth 2 January 1764 after 2 years of negotiations with their agent John Lewis Gibet and arriving Charlestown 12 April 1764. Reference Vol 29 p375 of Colonial Office Papers.

1 person died. Reference Council Journal 1763-4 144-47

Details of provisions, land and rent are preserved. Reference  Council Journal 1763-4 p328 and Vol 29 p160, 378 & 381 of Colonial Office Papers.

Then in 1765  a petition was sent signed by 58 French protestants in London wanting to join Gibet and Boutiton’s colony in Hillsboro. This is the ‘Help was given them and they united …’ group. By now Jean Jacques Grassart is Gransar and has wife but only 4 children. However, Jean Jacques daughter Constance died 3 June 1762 and his daughter Anne Élizabeth on 16 June 1762. So the number of his children would have fallen by two between 28 May 1762 and 1765. I note that only Jean Jacques and his family and Jacques Le Gros and his family  appear on both the 28 May 1762 list for Nova Scotia and the 1765 petition for South Carolina. To compound matters, Jean Jacques second wife Marie Rose Lengrand had died 23 Mar 1755 in child birth of Constance. He hadn’t remarried in 1762. In fact he only re-married his third wife Marguerite Dumé on 19 July 1772 in the Protestant of Templeux le Geurard in Tournai France. Maybe he was with Marguerite in 1762 and referred to Marguerite as his wife? But maybe he didn’t go to South Carolina after all?

I will go to TNA at Kew and dig around but remain convinced he is not the connection to UK Granshaws.