COMPLETED Re: Welsh Regt. MM info.

[Ladyhawk]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone possible tell me how I go about finding citations? I would like to find out even more info. if possible about my great uncle during his time in the war 

I had great help from Neil identifying my great uncle Thomas Jones' ribbons -

MM with Bar,
QSA,
KSA,
1914-1915*
(one other ribbon possibly long service medal)

From this info. I found a notification in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 9/12/1916 confirming Sgt. T. Jones Welsh R was awarded MM with Bar.

It says the MM's were published in the London Gazette 14/09/1916 but I cannot find this issue and don't know whether this would offer me any more info.

Using his regt. number from the paper I found two medal/roll cards for T. Jones Welsh R 5975

1) Awarded  MM (FRANCE) Jones T L/Sjt 2nd Bn. Welsh R 5975 date 14/9/16     awarded Bar 9/12/16

2) 15*(Welsh R Cpl. 5975), Victory M, British M (Welsh R Sjt. 5975) theatre of warfirst served (1) France date of entry 24/11/14

Any further information regarding the above gratefully received, especially as his rank L/Sjt, Cpl., & Sjt. 

Ladyhawk 

[mmm45]

Hi Ladyhawk
MM Citations arent usually published in the gazette although he will be listed.
The best place ive found of researching how he won them is by finding a listing in his local paper there is usually a write up.Its around 3 months from deed to been  gazetted so this may give you an idea of when to get the unit war diary for as there maybe mention in this as well.
The Regimental museum may well have the citation for his MM +bar i know the West Riding Regiment have them.

Ady

[km1971]

Regarding his ranks: he was a Corporal when he ‘entered theatre’ to earn the 1914-1915 Star; he was a Lance Sergeant when he earned the bar to his MM; and he was a Sergeant at the end when he earned the BWM and Victory Medal. His MIC should have a cross with four dots against his ranks linking one to the BWM/VM.

To search for a specific date in the LG you need to enter the date as:

With the Exact phrase:  14 September, 1916  - ie with a comma and space before the year. You then pick up the date actually printed on the page.

The MM was created in 1916, and he earned his first for deeds before that. If you go to http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=29749&geotype=London&gpn=8997&type=ArchivedSupplementPage&exact=14%20September,%201916

You need to read the information on pages 1 and 10, and he is on Page 6. If you print off all ten pages and make it into a booklet you will have a nice Christmas present for someone.

The three month rule of thumb given by Ady will not apply to these first issues. His first deed could be any time after November 1914.

I don’t know how these names were gathered. Maybe they were recommended for a DCM, and were turned down. The DCM and the VC were the only gallantry awards available for ORs before 1916. The MSM was also used as a gallantry award during WW1.

Ken

[Ladyhawk]

Hello,

Thanks Ady for you input.

Ken I can't thank you enough for finding the info. in the London Gazette 

I will indeed print this off as it will add to the gift I want to put together for my Uncle who gave me the picture of Thomas Jones (his uncle).
It's been my intention to try and find as much info. regarding Thomas during the war for my uncle and give it to him as a present.

All he knew from his mother is that he was a brave man - nothing about the medals received or which regt. he served with.

The MIC has a cross between the VM & BM and a cross next to rank of Sjt. both these entries have been written in blue ink whereas the 15* & Cpl., theater served in and date of entry are written in red ink.

Should I start a new thread to see if anyone else has copies to lookup as I'd like to find out more about the QSA & KSA medals he received 

Neil kindly gave me the following advice

If he was in the Welsh Regiment and in the Boer War then we're probably looking at the 1st battalion (2nd battn were in India at the time). Look at
QSA rolls at Kew in class WO100. I don't have copies to lookup for you, sorry.

Ladyhawk

[km1971]

Regarding the QSA/KSA you could try a post on the British Medal Forum in case a Welsh Regt. specialist has printed it off. Don't forget to include his number as there will be a few T Jones' listed. You only really need a lookup in the QSA roll, as the supplementary QSA list says whether he was entitled to a KSA or not. The KSA just means he was in South Africa for more than 18 months. You could not earn a KSA on its own.

Aternatively you may be able to get a copy of the microfilms sent to your nearest LDS centre under the A2A scheme. For the Welsh Regt. the QSA is on WO100/190 and the KSA is on WO100/334.

Ken

[Ladyhawk]

Fantastic help yet again Ken - I'll certainly try the forum for Medals first and see how I go. 

Thank you so much,
Ladyhawk

[Ladyhawk]

Hi Ken,

Firstly thanks for the advice about the british medal forum - I've had some amazing news about my great uncle Sjt. T Jones 

His medals are MM & bar, QSA, KSA, 1914/5 trio, Defence Medal, Army LSGC (GV) Italian Al Valore Miltitare (bronze) in the Regt. Museum Cardiff

MM award for High Wood Aug - Sept. 1916 Welsh Regt.

Please could I possibly trouble you again for help with LG   

I'm trying to search the LG  for his award Italian Al Valore Militare (Bronze) I was given the LG date of 26/5/17 but nothing else and have had no luck tracing him so far, have tried entering various combinations 

A huge thank you to you and everyone else who has contributed information about my great uncle - it's been very much appreciated 

Ladyhawk

[Ladyhawk]

Hi Ken,

Got there in the end finally found Thomas in LG issue 30096 25/5/1917 page 5

Ladyhawk

[km1971]

Hi Again

Great find.

The award of foreign medals was what we might call today 'team bonding' among the allies. They each gave a number of awards to the other allies to be given out. So it would have been a British officer that decided he was to receive a Italian medal. If you look at the previous few pages you see how they were given out on a strict basis of rank. Most of the recipients would not have been in the country that issued them. His was probably an extra thank you after receiving the bar to his MM.

Ken