ST JOHNS CHURCH & GEORGE BELL

[geordiewesterby]

Thanks eveyone for those comments, they are very interesting.

This is something I have come back to after a bit of a gap, but when I first saw the Banns record (in Boyd's Marriage index on the net a few years back) I went to the Tyne & Wear Archive to find the marriage. It's a couple of years ago now but there was no marriage listed at St John's in the records at the Archive. I'm pretty sure that there were other marriages listed for the year of 1810 - I couldn't swear to it though. That's something I could check out when I go to the Archive again.

Andrea, Stan, Bishop's Transcripts is something I haven't come across before, so I've just been reading up on what they are, but I think that the microfilmed records I was looking at in the Tyne & Wear Archive are the records of the church and not the BT's.

 Stan - quote[In the Bishop's Transcripts there are only marriages for Jan., Feb., Mar., 1810. (page 282) For some reason it looks as though no marriages were carried out for the rest of the year, according to this. Also it is called the Chapelry of St. John in Newcastle upon Tyne.

In a case this like this what would have happened, if they had published the banns and there were no marriages in 1810 for the rest of the year, would the couple go somewhere else to get married? I've checked the records of the city centre churches for 1810 and thereabouts and there are no marriages recorded there for John & Dorothy either.

Michael - in answer to your question, I don't actually know that this couple  are my ancestors - it's just that I know my g g g grandfather was Matthew Westerby, born 1811/12 - he's well documented as he's on the 1841 & 1851 Census, and he got married in 1838, so I've got his marriage cert, which lists his father as being JOHN WESTERBY - occ HUSBANDMAN. Matthew and all the people after that were all bricklayers, and the name Westerby isn't a north-east of England name, they're mostly in Yorks & Lincoln. So I was working on the theory that John maybe come into the area from Lincs or Yorks, but I cant find anything about this John Westerby the husbandman in any records for Newcastle upon Tyne. The only thing is this record of Banns, for 1810, and it's very tempting to think that this couple were Matthew's parents. Frustrating thing is, there is no record of Matthew's birth either in any of the Newcastle church records. So I'm a bit stuck. I pretty much gave up at one point but then it was mentioned to me about banns being put up at both churches so I checked out whether maybe Dorothy was from a different parish, outside the city, and that might lead me to Matthew's birth. But, not the case, they were both from the same parish according to the Banns.

 Thanks again everyone for your comments, any observations are very welcome.

 

[Michael Dixon]

bayster,

The angle on baptisms was to sort off find out about their religious denomination.

In that era, the only legal marriage in England/Wales was one that took place in a Parish ( =  Anglican) Church. 

So the choice for folk of Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc, faiths, was to marry in an Anglican Church, not marry or to marry outside England/Wales, e.g. Scotland.  Baptisms however were "legal" in the non-conformist churches.

So was this maybe a case of a couple of non-cornformists, preparing to marry in the "wrong" church, then changing their minds ?

Michael Dixon

[stanmapstone]

In the Bishop's Transcripts there are only marriages for Jan., Feb., Mar., 1810. (page 282) For some reason it looks as though no marriages were carried out for the rest of the year, according to this. Also it is called the Chapelry of St. John in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Stan

The rest of the marriages for 1810 are on pages 279-280-281 
So why 25 people had the banns read in St. John's and did not marry there is still not answered.
Stan

[fred111]

Sorry for jumping in, but I was most interested in Michael's information that couples had to get married in Anglican churches.
It solves mysteries for me why children were baptised in non-conform. churches after their parents were married somewhere else.
Michael, have you any dates for these laws, please - when they came into force, and when they ceased?
Thanks
Liz

[Michael Dixon]

Liz,

From 1754 to 30th June 1837 . From 1st July 1837 (when civil BMD registration was introduced) non-conformists could marry in their "own" churches. Also could marry in the Register Office.

Suggest you google the " Hardwicke Act 1754 "

I have some Gallaghers who were married in 1818 in St John's Parish Church, Newcastle, but baptised their children in St Andrew's RC Church. Newcastle.

Michael

[geordiewesterby]

Michael & Stan,

Thanks for that. I can't help wondering why George Bell compiled that list, he must have gone through all the banns, then looked to see whether they got married or not. 25 couples changing their minds in one year at one church just seems an awful lot!

That's a good point about the Anglican legality of marriages. I hadn't really thought about Catholic marriages being 'non-conformist' like Methodists. On the 1851 Census, Matthew's place of birth as given as 'St Andrews' which if that is right would indicate that it was a Catholic baptism. I think I have already checked the records for St Andrews but I think l need to go back to the Archive and check it out again just for my own peace of mind!   

[stanmapstone]

St. Andrew's was also a Church of England parish in Newcastle

Stan

[stanmapstone]

Suggest you google the " Hardwicke Act 1754 "

See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1753.htm

Stan

[geordiewesterby]

Yes Stan

Of course it was, St Andrews Church, in the street that used to be called Darn Crook. That's probably the parish that the 1851 Census is referring to, that's what I thought all along, now I come to think of it. When I checked the parish records looking for Matthew's baptism, it was the St Andrew C of E records I was looking at. It wasn't there though, so maybe it's possible it was the RC church of St Andrew. Worth checking out.