COMPLETED - Help I need an Expert - Please

[minimaiden2710]

My word Kevin, you were burning the midnight oil or do you live in another part of the world with a time difference?
Never think that you won't be of help to someone.  That's what we are all here for, to bounce idea's off each other.  Things can always be overlooked and a quick suggestion may solve the puzzle.
I think most things have been tried.  I e-mailed the records office yesterday to ask for advice and to see if they can search by birth date, although who's to say that this is accurate.  My cousin actually paid for them to do a search in 2007 and they came up empty handed.
Never mind, I'll wait and see if I receive a reply about my e-mail.
Why not let me have details of your Grandfather, 2 pairs of eye's are sometimes better than 1.
Take Care
Sarah 

[JAP]

...
Lily her sister died 25 March 1893 at 40 Greystone, Carlisle.  Her father William was present at her death.
This seems really strange that William and Lily were in Carlisle when the rest of the family were in South Shields.
...

The rest of the family were in South Shields in the 1891 census and in Carlisle in the 1901 census.

Mightn't they all have moved to Carlisle between the date of the 1891 census and the date of Lily's death in 1893?

I note that William was a "Raily Good Guard" in 1881.  If he continued in that occupation, he might have been on trains on the 1891 and 1901 censuses and simply have been missed.

What is William's occupation on Rose's 1912 marriage certificate.

What is William's father's name and occupation on his certificate of marriage to Annie?

JAP

[JenB]

Lily her sister died 25 March 1893 at 40 Greystone, Carlisle.  Her father William was present at her death.

Hello again sarah,

I'm getting confused about William, because you've said he was present at Lily's death.

But on this thread http://www.rootschat.com/links/05ua/ you've said that her mother Annie registered her death.

The last child Lily was born in 1890 and her birth was registered by Annie.  Lily died in 1893 and the death was also registered by Annie but William is listed as being the father. 

So how do you know William was present?

Have you eliminated the William Burnett who died in South Shields in 1892 aged 48, suggested to you on this thread? http://www.rootschat.com/links/05ub/

Jennifer

[minimaiden2710]

Hi Jen,
Hi JAP,

I'm so sorry I've confused you both....I've also confused myself.  My brain is so full of the Burnett's it hurts.
Ignore the bit about Lily's death.......it was William Jnr's death (in Carlisle) that coincided with Rose being born in South Shields.  You must think I'm a complete idiot.  I feel it.

William Burnett Jnr was born in 29 July 1880 in Normanton, Wakefield.  Birth Registered by Annie.  Father, William, classed as a Railway Goods Guard.

William Jnr died 8 April 1889 1887 at 5 Greystone, Carlisle.  Father William Present at the death. but he is classed as being an Insurance agent

Lily Burnett born 16 May 1890 at Westoe, Durham.  Birth registered by Annie.  Father William - Insurance agent.
Lily died  25 March 1893 at 40 Greystone, Carlisle.  Daughter of William Burnett an Insurance agent.  Death registered by Annie.

It is the date of William Jnrs death that doesn't add up with Rose's supposed birth.

On Rose and Arthur's marriage certificate (9/12/1912) William was listed as have been a Railway Goods Guard (deceased) which is strange because on
the other certificates it says he has become a Life Insurance agent.

Rose also had other siblings which I haven't mentioned here.

The William Burnett who died in 1892 - South Shields aged 48 was definately not ours.  He was a Unitarian Minister.  Another unwanted certificate now added to the others.

On William and Annie's marriage certificate it reads;

William Burnett aged 28 years - Widower - Railway Good Guard - Kings Cross Lane, Carlisle.  Son of William Burnett (deceased) Lieutenant in 11th Regt of Foot.  (According to Army records there was NO William Burnett who matched this)

Annie Maria Alma Cook aged 23 years - Spinster - Domestic Servant -27 English Street, Carlisle.  Father William Cook, Gen Labourer.

I hope I haven't caused too much confusion.

Sarah  (I think it's cup of tea time)

[JAP]

Hello Sarah,

Thank you very much indeed for all that detailed information!

I hope you don't mind if I try to make a timeline for my own benefit ...

Ca 1849, Liverpool Lancashire
William BURNETT b Liverpool Lancashire (place from 1881 census, birthdate from age of 28 at 1877 marriage and age of 32 in 1881 census ), father William BURNETT (father's name from marriage cert).

1855, Mar qtr Portsea Hampshire
Anne Maria Alma COOK born, father William COOK (father's name from her marriage cert).

1871 census 36 Greystone Houses Botchergate Carlisle Cumberland
Annie's parents and siblings - William COOK 42 Labourer Ry Navvy b Carlisle, wife Emma 39 b Portsmouth, children Kate Emma 11 b Portsmouth, William 9 b Halifax Nova Scotia, George Henry 7 b Gosport, Margaret 5 b Plymouth, Jessie 2 b Woolwich. 

1877 Dec qtr Carlisle Cumberland
William BURNETT 28, Widower, a Railway Good Guard, father William BURNETT Lieut in the 11th Regiment of Foot, marries Annie COOK 23, Domestic Servant, father William COOK a General Labourer.

1880 Sep qtr Wakefield Yorkshire
William BURNETT jnr born in Normanton.  Informant is his mother Annie; father William's occupation is Railway Good Guard

1881
1881 census Normanton, Yorkshire
BURNETT
William, Head, 32 b Liverpool, Raily Good Guard
Annie MA, Wife, b Plymouth
William, Son, 6 months b Normanton
1881 census 39 Greystone Botchergate Carlisle Cumberland
William COOK (Annie's father) Head Married 51 Gen Labourer Chelsea Pensioner is with children Kate Emma 21 Machine Winder, Jessie 12, James 9,
Rose 6 (James and Rose both b Carlisle)
1881 census Hesket in the Forest Cumberland
Emma COOK (Annie's mother) Married 53, George COOK 16, both b Portsmouth are servants in the household of a Farmer, Peter VICKERS

1882 Dec qtr Newcastle T, Northumberland
Violet Emma BURNETT born.

ca 1884 Gateshead, Co Durham
(There's more than one possibility - a James, and a James William in Jun qtr 1884, and a James Ernest in Jun qtr 1885)
James BURNETT born

1886 Jun qtr, Newcastle T, Northumberland
Gladstone BURNETT born

1887
1887 Jun qtr, Carlisle Cumberland
William BURNETT jnr dies on 8 April at 5 Greystone
Informant is his father William BURNETT, Insurance Agent
??3 May 1887??, South Shields
Rose BURNETT born?
Birth entry not found
Her death certificate gives her date and place of birth as 3 May 1887, South Shields; however, her age is given as 2 in the 1891 census and 12 in 1901.  On her marriage cert in 1912, her age is given as 24.
1887 Jun quarter Carlisle Cumberland
Rose COOK (Annie's sister) dies aged 13 on 20 June

1890 Jun qtr, S Shields, Co Durham
Lily BURNETT born at Westoe.  Informant is Annie; father William's occupation given as Insurance Agent.

1891
1891 census, Westoe, S Shields, Co Durham
Annie BURNETT is listed as Wife, 35, Married, b Portsmouth.  With her are children Violet E 8, James 6, Gladstone 4, Rose 2, Lily 10 months (Rose and Lily both b S Shields.  No Head of household is recorded.
1891 census, 6 Melrose Tce Botchergate Carlisle Cumberland
COOKE family (Annie's parents and sibling - thanks for reference Jennifer) were William 69 Coal Agent, Emma wife 59, daughter Jessie 22 Woolen Weaver.

1893 Mar qtr, Carlisle Cumberland
Lily BURNETT, age 3, dies at 40 Greystone; death registered by Annie, father recorded as an Insurance Agent.

1901 census, 16 Union St Botchergate Carlisle Cumberland
Annie BURNETT is listed as Wife, 46, Married, Charwoman.  With her are children Violet E 18, James 16, Gladstone 14, Rose 12.  No Head of household is recorded.  (James's occupation was one I've not come across previously - Electric light shade Cleaner.)

1911 census
Not yet available for Cumberland

1912 Dec qtr Carlisle Cumberland
Rose BURNETT marries Arthur GRUBB on 9 October; Rose's age is recorded as 24.  Rose's father is listed on her marriage certificate as William BURNETT, Railway Guard, deceased.

JAP
Edited to add information and to amend information which has been revised in later posts

[JenB]

You must think I'm a complete idiot.  I feel it.

Absolutely not    it was more than likely that I had confused things.

Am I right in saying that the last documented sighting of William was in April 1889 when he registered the death of William Junior? Although, since Lily was born in May 1890, he must have been around for a bit longer 

It is the date of William Jnrs death that doesn't add up with Rose's supposed birth.

Sorry, I'm not too clear what you mean by this? Rose is said to have been born in 1887 and William Junior died in 1889.

[JAP]

Hi JenB,

I guess that Sarah's concern might be that Rose was born in South Shields ca (say) 1887-1888, and Lily was born in South Shields 1890 but that William jnr died in Carlisle in 1889.  They travelled around so much that this is surely quite possible.  Especially if they happened to have relatives in Carlisle whom they were visiting.

This might have made a better story if William had stayed in the railways - he might have had free tickets, or been allowed to take them in (or sneaked them in) the goods van!

JAP

[JenB]

This might have made a better story if William had stayed in the railways -

And might have made a bit of sense of the Carlisle/South Shields issue - he might have been working on the Carlisle - Newcastle railway line.

Jennifer

[minimaiden2710]

Hello Jen,
It's the village idiot here again.  As you will see I have modified the above message because I've made yet another gaff.  I will try to work out how to attach a copy of young Williams death cert.  If I manage I'll post it on another message.
I think my brain is so weary of meeting dead ends everything is getting muddled.
Speak Soon
Sarah
I have just noticed the mention of relatived in Carlisle.  Annie's parents lived there after her father finished in the Army.