Author Topic: HELP 1861 Lookup please  (Read 2681 times)

Offline DDRAIG

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HELP 1861 Lookup please
« on: Sunday 22 March 09 15:28 GMT (UK) »
Could SKP help me over a Brickwall that I have come up against, I m looking for the details of the family of Charles Ward Railway Labourer brn Gloucestershire 1817, on the 1861 Census or later.
I have found them on the 1851 Census as being in Slaggyford Village Knarsdale Northumberland. and any further information on this family would be very much appreciated, and my thanks to you in advance.

Ddraig
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Offline AMBLY

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #1 on: Monday 23 March 09 04:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ddraig

The 1851 says:
Charles 34, b abt 1817 Gloucestershire
Wife: Isabella 28, b abt 1823 Gloucestershire
Dau: Catherine 5 - b abt  1846 Berwick
Dau: Mary 2 - b abt 1849 Bridgeston

The 1851 Census states the birthplaces just as above . No -shire on the end of Berwick.

Not finding anything on the 1861 England or Scotland.
No FreeBMD births in Haltwhistle between 1851 and 1861 (The registration district covering Knardale)
There are the following deaths on FreeBMD, though:

DEATHS - Haltwhistle
Charles WARD - Mar Qtr 1851 - Vol 25, pg 209
Isabella WARD - Jun Qtr 1851 - Vol 25, pg 195
Mary WARD - Jun Qtr 1851 - Vol 25, pg 195

The 1851 was taken on 30 March 1851, so perhaps the Charles who died within March Qtr 1851 is not him?
Seeing the age gap between daughters Catherine and Mary, more inclined to imagine the Charles who died, could be an infant son?

Noting, though the deaths of Isabella and Mary - not long after the Census - are on ther same reference. So that looks very like the mother and daughter from the Census.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #2 on: Monday 23 March 09 04:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi again

IGI has a marriage, which you're looking into:
Charles Ward and Isabella Janet Cheston
Saint James Paddington 1836
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369121.0.html

This marriage would, based on the ages given in 1851 Census, be too old to be the marriage of the 1851 Census couple;  well. Isabella at least - as she would only have been 13 or so in 1836 if she was born abt 1823? Unless it is them and somewhere along the line an age has been doctored or mis-quoted....

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,145441.0.html
Talks about your Catherine WARDs marriage - but not to whom and when?
Have you got some details on this marriage - such as where and when?
Did it say if her father was deceased? What was his occupation given as?
Witness?

Something from the marriage and post-marriage census may help find her in 1861?

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #3 on: Monday 23 March 09 05:05 GMT (UK) »
This may be the birth rego for Catherine WARD of the 1851 Census:

Jun Qtr 1847 Berwick - Catherine WADE  - Vol 25, pg 10.
It's definitely indexed in the original as WADE - but mistakes did creep into even those indexes, being as they themselves were transcriptions!


Drats, there is a Catherine WADE of the right age and POB in 1851 with her parents. , and she's a twin to boot. Twin is also on Census and on FreeBMD same ref.  Back to drawing board!

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)


Offline DDRAIG

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #4 on: Monday 23 March 09 16:57 GMT (UK) »
Hello Ambly,

First of all let me thank you most sincerely for the information that you have passed on to me it is most appreciated, but it raises a few queries.

(1) IF the deaths that are shown Isabella and Mary are the ones that I am looking for
why is it that we cannot find Charles and Catherine on the 1861 census I know that Catherine mrd in Cardiff 1868 and that Charles was alive on that date, his occupation is shown on the marriage certificate as a Labourer

(2) it is possible as you say that the deaths of Charles who could be an infant son of Isabella may have caused complications that may have caused Isabellas death, and Mary's may have been through illness
(3) I am tempted to send for the death certificate of Isabella out of curiosity

Take Care Ddraig  :)
Bushell Nor/Dev. French Dur/Yks/Glam. Edwards Shrops/Lnd/Glam.  Armytage Ess/ Glam Eves Som/Glam. Owens Glam  Stimpson Rut/Glam. Nash Gls/Mon/  Tucker Gls. Williams Gls. Lever Yks  Leaf Yks

Offline AMBLY

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #5 on: Monday 23 March 09 22:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ddraig


Warning - yap yap yap  coming up, read on!!  ;D  ;D
My thoughts....

1) If Catherine's marriage cert does not state "deceased" for her father, it doesn't mean he wasn't - some certificates simply did not state it - either through omission or because the marrying child of the father did not know the father was dead (or condsidered him to be!). In relative terms, a statement that a father is deceased is more likely to be true. A father not stated to be deceased, but whose life or death is not found in ensuing years after the marriage is more likely to be deceased - especially if there is a death in the right place and age.

2) The death of Charles WARD in Haltwhistle Mar Qtr 1851. There is no Charles WARD or similar, birth in Haltwhistle 1841 to 1851. If the death was that of an infant, he may have  been born elsewhere?  Maybe it is your Charles' death afterall....it seemed like a stretch, to assume your Charles was alive on Census night yet be registered as deceased within the the March Qtr of the same year - within 1 or 2 days. But, on reflection it's probably not so hard to imagine it's him afterall - a couple of things could have occurred.....

a) the schedule may have been physically completed during the day hours, or in whole days& nights before the actual night of the official census night, ie: completed days earlier in readiness and expectation of who would be included on the schedule - but sometime  just before or on the day of Census night , or the day after it (ie:from midnight on the 30th) he died.  Either the census report we see is correct - he WAS alive on the night of Census (up to midnight on the 30th)  or he wasn't alive on Census night, having died in the day or evening hours of the 30th, or a day or so before .. but the schedule already prepared and perhaps already taken away by the enumerator - was never corrected to 'remove his name' from the schedule.

b) the registration of such a death on 29th, 30th or 31st March was immediately afte the death, being done on or close to 29th , 30th or 31st March 1851 and so allowing it to get into the March Qtr.  Or, and I don't know if it has ever happened ( I have a very faint memory of one of mine something similar but can't remember who) also possible in my mind is:   a death occurred after the end of a quarter, but because the registrar is returning his Quarterly reports quite some time after the actual end of a Qtr, he may have decided for expediency, to include the death of a person who died very soon after the Qtr end. Perhaps more likely to occur in a small district?

3) In 1861, Catherine should be abt 15 based on her age in 1851. She could be out working in Service and simply not together with a father who may be still alive. Charles' POB simply as Gloucestershire, doesn't help matters. Catherine  - with a father who is either dead or alive, may be with maternal or paternal relatives and/or be down as another surname - the fact we don't find a marriage of her parents or her own birth record - helps that theory along, too. Or she could be called Kate, Katherine etc and/or the name WARD be mis-transcribed or mis-enumerated.

4) If Charles survived 1851 and was left with a 5 yr old daughter while  coping with the grief of losing his wife and 2 yr old daughter: who knows what he might have done knowing he had to care for her as well as earn a crust. Not to mention he was up the other end of the country - possibly away from family. He may have taken Catherine to be with or near relatives, on his side of the family or on her mother's -  possibly back in their native area (and a place of birth as "Gloucestershire" is a whole kettle of fish just in itself , what with border nuances with other counties). In 10 years between 1851 and 1861 a lot can happen. He may have died within that time. If he was alive by 1861 especially owing to his line of work on the Railway - he could be anywhere along the track - England, Scotland or Wales. He may have remarried anywhere, changed his type of work........

Gloucestershire, Berwick - Cardiff. Quite a bit of shifting about.
And musing on  the daughter Mary - place of birth Bridgeston - is that Northumberland? Glasgow? I wonder,,,,


Cheers
AMBLY

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 24 March 09 06:32 GMT (UK) »
For ref:

Sep Qtr 1868 Cardiff
Catherine WARD and Thomas STIMSON (STIMPSON)

They remained in the Cardiff area. Noting this Catherine is consistently displaying an age indicating  approx 1848 as year of birth, and is aged approx 2 years younger than the Catherine age 5 from the 1851. So Catherine in the 1861, should be age 13 to 15.

1871:
RG10 -  Piece: 5367 /  Folio: 92 /  Page: 12
Wife: Cathrine 23, says born "Barrol, Ireland"
It also says the same POB for their son Henry age 2 - but his birth rego seems to be in Cardiff. Son Charles is 5mths old.

1881:
RG11 /  Piece: 5276 /  Folio: 31 /  Page: 18
Wife: Catherine STIMPSON is 33, saying born Berwick on Tweed. All 7 children, incl Henry now say born Cardiff.

1891:
RG12 /  Piece: 4399 /  Folio 115 /  Page 16
Wife: Catherine STIMPSON is 43, saying born Berwick on Tweed

1901:
Thomas is now a widower.

Could there be any further clues  in the marriage - address, names of witness - which  might suggest why Catherine, who appears to be the same girl as the one in Northumberland in 1851, ended up in Cardiff to marry Thomas STIM(P)SON  in 1868

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline DDRAIG

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 25 March 09 14:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ambly,

I have digested everything that you have sent and I have decided to put all on hold for the time being as I have sent for the Death certificate of Isabella to see if I can glean any clues from it, it should arrive about the middle of next week when it arrives I will be in touch,

Once again many thanks for all the info that you have given me

Take Care   Ddraig
Bushell Nor/Dev. French Dur/Yks/Glam. Edwards Shrops/Lnd/Glam.  Armytage Ess/ Glam Eves Som/Glam. Owens Glam  Stimpson Rut/Glam. Nash Gls/Mon/  Tucker Gls. Williams Gls. Lever Yks  Leaf Yks

Offline DDRAIG

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Re: HELP 1861 Lookup please
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 02 April 09 09:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Ambly :)

Have received the Death Certificate for Isabella and may I say it is the right Isabella, now the hunt goes on to find the marriage which I think will be a bit of a task.
May I thank you for your help and for putting me on the right track.

Reards Ddraig
Bushell Nor/Dev. French Dur/Yks/Glam. Edwards Shrops/Lnd/Glam.  Armytage Ess/ Glam Eves Som/Glam. Owens Glam  Stimpson Rut/Glam. Nash Gls/Mon/  Tucker Gls. Williams Gls. Lever Yks  Leaf Yks