COMPLETED without a conclusion -Kingston b 1832 to Sydney NSW arr 1859 and later

[majm]

Hi All,

A George Smith christened 10 Mar 1832 at Kingston, Cams, son of John Smith and Martha, went on when aged 21 to marry at Kingston 28 July 1853 to Caroline White, then aged 18, and a daughter of Jonathan White.  (3b, page 671)

This couple with several children arrived in NSW Australia ex the Nimrod on 7 April 1859.  The passenger list indicates these children were: James, son, aged 5, William, son aged 2 1/2, and a baby girl born while vessel was inside Sydney harbour but had not yet tied up at docks. 

And I note that a George Smith may have settled on 50 acres on outskirts of Sydney, just west of the then future Prospect Reservoir.  I have details about that exact 50 acres, but do not know if that is same George Smith as born 1832 Kington Cams. 

I am posting this message on this Cams board in hope that someone may know further details about George Smith, his parents (John/Martha) his wife Caroline (White, d of Jonathan), and/or of any possible connection to my brickwall, John (Ellington) Smith born Ely abt 1840, and who by abt 1885 was working in NSW on the construction of the dam wall for that same Prospect Reservoir, and several of his children were born at a farm owned by a George Smith, farm named "La Retreat" and in same area as Prospect Reservoir.

I will put similar message on the Aussie boards, and I have many other postings on many mailing lists, forums etc.  Its just that there's  the  usual "John Smith" brickwall syndrome!  so I am trying to get past him (my great grandfather, whose death reg in 1928 in NSW shows him as son of John Smith and Ann Ellington).

ADD:  Aussie thread is :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,375363.0.html
Cheers,  Ma

[bedfordshire boy]

Ely is 24 miles away from Kingston, at the opposite end of Cambs, so any connection would appear, on the face of it, to be unlikely.

Have you checked the Cambs FHS site at http://www.cfhs.org.uk/Search.html for baptisms, burials and census entries for Smiths in Kingston?

David

[majm]

Ta David,

yes, I had checked and had noticed that the Ecc. Parish was ELY.  But of course I am in NSW Australia, so to me 24 miles of flat ground is no real big distance.  Two of the census references would seem to be
1851 Class: HO107; Piece: 1758; Folio: 399; Page: 11
1871 Class: RG10; Piece: 1577; Folio: 28; Page: 1;THIS ONE has Civil Parish: Kingston 
Ecclesiastical parish: Ely  County/Island: Cambridgeshire  Country: England  If that does not place Kingston in the Ecc. parish of Ely, then please what does it mean - is there an error in the transcription perhaps?
Do you want the info for the births of John and Martha Smith's children? or the christening for John Smith in around Christmas 1792 at Kingston?  I have been diligent, just stuck at a John and Smith brickwall.  I do understand this may be too difficult, but that should not mean that I just don't try - surely      I am quite sure that family history study is as much about the journey as about the finds.  So I try to be positive. co-operative and I enjoy my hobby.  I thank you for your comments David, and hope others can also learn more about their hobby too through online sites such as rootschat, but also through attending archives offices and searching through archival papers.  There are benefits with searching both online and offline.  I enjoy both.

I realise that the 1832 born George Smith married a local lass in 1853 but I also notice that they travelled half way around the world to NSW with their young family and while inside Sydney harbour but before docking, Mrs George Smith gave birth to a baby daughter.  Seems to me that while you explain that 24 miles in Cams may have been a big distance, but the journey that George and his wife and children took from there to NSW while Mrs S was pregnant - David to me that was a greater distance, not just in miles, nor terrain, but in time.  I also realise that the NSW passenger records show that George could not read, could not write, but that his parents were alive, and were named as John and Martha Smith, of Kingston. 


Cheers, MA

[bedfordshire boy]

In the religious world the country was split up into dioceses (ecclesiastical districts), each under the control of a bishop. A diocese consisted of numerous parishes. The diocese of Ely was large and covered parts of Cambs, Hunts, Beds, Northants, Suffolk and Norfolk.

The parishes in Ely and the parish of Kingston all fell within the diocese of Ely (as did all other parishes in Cambs), so the vicar of each parish church reported to his bishop in Ely (the local head office, if you like). But administratively each county was run separately. Censuses show in which ecclesiastical district a parish is situated, so parishes in other counties would also show Ely as being the Ecclesiastical District.

For John and Martha to have moved to Ely and back to Kingston would have meant that they would probably have needed a settlement certificate. They couldn't have just ambled the 24 miles and resettled in Ely - if they looked like being a possible charge to Ely rate payers a Removal Order would have been quickly obtained and they'd have been sent back to Kingston.

But this is academic, as censuses give no indication that they ever moved out of Kingston. In 1851 they were living there with children George 19, Maryann 15, and Rebecca 12; John was 60 and Martha 57. All were born at Kingston bar Martha who was born at Hatley St George, Cambs, 5 miles away. In 1841 in Kingston Rebecca was their youngest daughter aged 2, and it would seem that she was probably their last child as Martha would have been just about at the end of her child bearing age. So there's no evidence that John and Martha had another child in Ely c1840 - in fact all the evidence seems to show that it was most unlikely that they did.

In many ways if was often easier to move half way around the world than half way across the county. The parish overseers were often prepared to pay the passage and assist with supplies and clothing for families who would otherwise have been a burden on the parish

I didn't suggest, or imply, that you shouldn't continue to look for John Ellington Smith.

Have you been through the online catalogue for Smith and Eliington at http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/catalogue/ ?

David

[majm]

Hi David,

Would you know the surname of Martha? born 1794 at Hatley?  Do you know of any siblings for her husband John, born at Kingston in 1792, Do you know of the details of the marriage between John Smith, son of William and Ann to Martha, possibly around 1830?  Do you know of anyone born Ann Ellington?  Is it likely that my great grandfather John (Ellington) Smith, born abt 1840, when answering questions in NSW in the 1880's-1900's regarding his own orgins when registering his own children in accordance with the then rules of the NSW BDM registrar-general's office, may have said he was born in Parish of Ely, in Cambridgeshire, England, rather than in Ely when asked "where was the father born"?  Of course, these are rhetorical questions, but I would like to know if you have any comments about those questions. I have searched IGI extracted, CAMDEX, free BDM and the usual sites.

The fee paid for George Smith for that voyage to NSW in 1859 was noted as one pound per passenger, and he was charged and paid one pound even for that baby "born in the harbour".

Thank you for that online catalogue link, I think perhaps I have been advised of it previously, but I will check it out again. 

ADD
If its not too much trouble, would you be able to put links to various possible online sites that may be outside of Cambridge but within the Ecc Parish of Ely please?  I have checked and the link in your previous posting I and others have searched on many occasions since perhaps mid 2008 when on another board a chap offered it as a suggestion to help find "my" John (Ellington) Smith.

On the other hand, I am also interested in John and Martha Smith and their descendants, not just their son George, but the others too, for the first name of "Rebecca" is significant to my immediate paternal line.
Cheers,  MA.

[majm]

Hi All,

When George Smith born 1832 in Kingston arrived in NSW he, (as did the rest of the passengers) was required to answer immigration questions.  Like many of the passengers his fare  wAS one pound for each member of his family, ie he paid out five pounds.  Some passengers did not pay the fares but had undertaken Mess duties and the like on the passage.  I had presumed that this would have been an economic circumstance, but I do not have any documentation to support that notion.  However, I do note that George Smith paid out one pound for a baby infant who had not made the lengthy voyage, but was born within the Sydney Harbour, while the ship was waiting to berth.

I attach a cutting from the passenger list where it shows that George Smith, while not able to read or write, was certainly able to provide the authorities with details about his own origins, for you will notice he knew his parents to be living and that they were (of course) John and Martha. 

My interest is two fold:
firstly what happened to George Smith and family after they arrived in NSW, hence I have a thread on the Aussie boards, and I have the link on page one of this thread.

Secondly, I am interested in the origins of this chap, George Smith born Kingston to John and Martha Smith. 

I am interested because my late parent and several of his siblings put time and effort into trying to find out about their Grandfather, John Smith, with whom they had spent time when they were children.  Further I am interested because I enjoy family history study as do my cousins, including descendants of some double first cousins of my father's generation, as well as my cousins who are descendants of the 8 children of John (Ellington) Smith that survived childhood and went on to marry and have children of their own.

I do hope we can try to find more information on George Smith's parents/uncles/aunts regardless of if I do not find a link to my John (Ellington) Smith, for I do have information about quite a number of families with the surname SMITH who came to NSW in the 1850-1880 period.

Cheers,  MA

[bedfordshire boy]

Why should they be rhetorical questions?

"Would you know the surname of Martha? born 1794 at Hatley?"
Hatley St George baptisms and marriages are on the IGI. There's only one Martha in the right time frame - Martha Wonner baptised 17 May 1795.

"Do you know of any siblings for her husband John, born at Kingston in 1792"
Smith baptisms in Kingston
John Smith 30 Dec 1792 son of William and Ann
Sarah Smith 9 Apr 1797 dau of Win & Ann (mistranscription of Wm?)
Elijah (born 1 Feb 1825) bap 23 Mar 1828 John & Martha
Daniel 23 Mar 1828 John & Martha
Jane 30 Oct 1831 John & Martha
George 10 Mar 1832 John & Martha
Rebecca 13 Jan 1839 John & Martha

"Do you know of the details of the marriage between John Smith, son of William and Ann to Martha, possibly around 1830?" No, but the marriage seems to have been earlier than you think, probably pre 1825. You need a look up on Boyds Marriage Index. There was an 1823 marriage in Shepreth, 5 miles from Kingston, between John Smith and Martha Winter, but it wasn't them as they were in Shepreth in 1841.

"Do you know of anyone born Ann Ellington?" The Cambs FHS baptism index has an Ann Ellington, dau of John and Susan baptised at Upwell in 1817, but unfortunately she appears to have died in 1824. There are a number of others on the IGI in England baptised 1812 +/-10

The 1871 census which you quote doesn't say Ecclesiastical PARISH of Ely, but Ecclesiastical DISTRICT of Ely, which as I said, encompassed parts of 6 counties. But how the Church of England organised itself doesn't really impact on your John Ellington Smith, who I'm sure when he gave his birthplace as Ely, or Ely Cambs, didn't actually mean the Ecclesiastical district of Ely, but rather the city of Ely or a parish pretty close.

David

[majm]

Ta David,

I do appreciate all the info, and I learn so much every time.  Re the 1871 census, I have the scanned image in front of me and of course it is only now, from your explanation about Ecc Parish and Ecc District that I am starting to get my head around it all.  Are you aware that ancestry has listed this particular image as being in the Civil Parish of Kingston and the Ecc parish of Ely? But they make no reference at all to Ecc District  So, until I had your informative and welcome explanation, I was taking those headings to be something significantly accurate.  How confusing for everyone trying to research back across time and from half a world away. 

Thanks for responding to those rhetorical questions, your efforts are appreciated.  Done Boyds, done Pallots, done the NSW Soc. of Genies records both manually and electronic databases, and State Archives, libraries, etc. Got enough info to wallpaper several walls!

Cheers, and thanks for your efforts,

Do you think I should notify ancestry that 1871 image does not show Ecc Parish but rather Ecc District and thus they need to change their heading on their entry?  (They have different headings for other years census).

MA

[bedfordshire boy]

Yet another sloppy basic error by Ancestry! No, I hadn't noticed their headings as I very rarely look at them, but go straight to the image, and I can now fully understand how they managed to confuse you.

They have been known to make changes to their data, so telling them wouldn't do any harm!

David