Civil Birth Record - KELLY (John Joseph)

[carn]

Hello

This is my first time posting at RootsChat, so please forgive me if I make any mistakes.

I am trying to track down my grandfather John Joseph Kelly born in County Wicklow, Ireland.  Specifically his civil birth record.

This is the information I have from his church certificate:

Name: John Joseph Kelly
Date of Birth / Baptism: 01/12/1900
Mother: Jane Cooper
Father: James Kelly (postal official)
Address: Rathdrum
Parish / District: Rathdrum

I am trying to use the familysearch.org site to find the year/quarter, registration district, volume and page number before sending my application off to the GRO.  The problem I'm having is none of the possible matches have the parents' names listed so I can't be sure which, if any, is him.

The only records listed within 12 months after that birth/baptism date are in the Rathdown registration district.  The first one in the Rathdrum registration district after that birth/baptism date isn't until 1904.

Is it possible his civil registration occured that long after his birth?  Or, is it possible his parish was in Rathdrum, but his birth was civilly registered in Rathdown?

From looking at this map, those districts seem to border each other so hopefully that's plausible!

If anyone can answer any of those questions and/or help with a lookup, I would very much appreciate it!  Here are the two Rathdown civil records that I think could be him.  Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to offer!

Registration quarter: Jan - Mar 1901
Film number: 101068
Volume: 2
Page: 806
Digital GS number: 4193982
Image number: 00357

Registration quarter: Jul - Sep 1901
Film number: 101068
Volume: 2
Page: 900
Digital GS number: 4193982
Image number: 00502

Carnie 

[Taidquest]

Hi Carnie, welcome to rootschat,the first birth listed could
be the one you are looking for because I  had a great uncle
born December 1878 but not registered til march and so his birth appears in the
indexes for the January to March quarter for 1879.
                                                               Anne

[shanew147]

just to mention that when you are ordering your cert(s) from the GRO - dont include the Film number, Digital GS number or Image number details. These are Familysearch/LDS internal reference numbers and dont apply to the actual Civil index books

The boundry between the registration districts of Rathdown and Rathdrum is just south of Greystones, which is about 30km north of Rathdrum Town


Shane

[carn]

Thank you both for your replies!

It's good to have that point of reference, Taid.  I had originally assumed it would be the Jan - Mar listing, but I began to have doubts when I realised the civil listing district said Rathdown and the church certificate district said Rathdrum (by now you can tell I do not live in Ireland  )

Thank you shane for confirming the distance between the two districts.  Are you able to comment on the possibility of either of these Rathdown listings being my grandfather, despite his church baptism certificate showing Rathdrum as his address and district?

Is that kind of thing (un)heard of?  I'm not sure how much I should read into it.  Given the close proximity of the districts and the dates on both listings, I'm inclined to assume that first listing is his.  But 30km was a longer distance in 1900 than it is today, so I'm letting my doubts run wild here a little bit.  It seems unlikely anyone would travel 30km to go to church in 1900, similarly to register a birth.  I suppose it's possible they moved shortly after his birth?

Also, thank you for the tip on leaving out the familysearch-specific info.  I did read in another thread the GRO sometimes won't process a request if they know you used that site?!  Certainly great to know as I probably would have included it!

Carnie

[shanew147]

It is maybe a little bit far away, maybe John's parents went back their 'home' parish to have their child baptised ?

another possibility is that he escaped registration completely, it happens, I've several of my own ancestors where I have baptism records and no civil registration.

I think the details you found are probably worth checking out, even if they are wrong at least you have then excluded two possibilities. Another line of investigation is the census - 1911 and 1901 for Co. Wicklow are due to be added to the national archives website later this year - keep an eye on  http://census.nationalarchives.ie/ for details


Shane

[carn]

Thank you for the quick reply Shane!

A kind person pointed out to me via PM that there is in fact a civil registration in Rathdrum for Oct - Dec 1900, although it is for "John Kelly" not "John Joseph Kelly."

On all other certificates I have for him he is listed as "John Joseph Kelly."  [The other records are: his church baptism record, his marriage (not Irish), his death (not Irish) and my parents' marriage (also not Irish.)]

It seems strange to me his middle name appears on all of those but not on his civil birth certificate?  Does the LDS site sometimes leave middle names out?

If not, I guess I can think of a couple of explanations.  Perhaps his parents hadn't decided on a middle name until the baptism (assuming the baptism is typically registered after the civil record?)  Or, perhaps a forgetful/excited father lodged the civil registration and couldn't remember the middle name (I know my own father would be capable of this )

If either of those explanations make sense, I think they may be more plausible than his church registration district (and address) being different to the civil registration district?  I am out of my depth here though!  Which of these do you think is more likely?

Regardless I am going to take your advice and order one of these certificates if for nothing other than to rule one out.

Thanks again for your help Shane, it's very much appreciated.

Carnie

[carn]

Hi Carnie, welcome to rootschat,the first birth listed could
be the one you are looking for because I  had a great uncle
born December 1878 but not registered til march and so his birth appears in the
indexes for the January to March quarter for 1879.
                                                               Anne

Taid, just thinking some more about what you said above.  I'm wondering did your great uncle also have a church record and if so, do you know if it was registered prior to the civil record?

Thanks!
Carnie

[Taidquest]

none found as yet,this family have led us a merry dance
and the only church record I have for them is marriage
cert.I was going to say the second name of your relative
 might be a name taken at the time of confirmation which
he only used for anything which took place there but I
 think you mentioned he used Joseph on a civil
document?
birth reg' would most likely have taken place after the baptism for
R.C. but I don't know about any other church.
       
                              Anne

[carn]

none found as yet,this family have led us a merry dance
and the only church record I have for them is marriage
cert.I was going to say the second name of your relative
 might be a name taken at the time of confirmation which
he only used for anything which took place there but I
 think you mentioned he used Joseph on a civil
document?
birth reg' would most likely have taken place after the baptism for
R.C. but I don't know about any other church.
       
                              Anne

Hmm you make an interesting point Anne, I had not considered that about the second name!  Thank you.

And he was R.C. so I guess that throws out my theory that his parents decided on a middle name between his civil registration and baptism!  Unless they were somehow traveling backwards in time? 

Carnie