John Henry SMITH b. c1825

[jeffreyjoecarroll]

I am trying to find any information/connection for a John Henry SMITH (AKA 'Henry Smith the Elder' as seen on his sons death certificate).

John was born c1825 and married Jane ? (also born c1825). I don't know their marriage date. The birth dates are estimated from census records. John was a mine labourer. I don't know when John died but Jane shows up in the 1871 census, but not in 1881.

John and Jane had two children that i know of:

Henry, born 1853 in Whitely (or Whitley) - hard to read on his marriage certificate, and
Arthur, born 1869 in Eston.

I imagine there were other children between these two but have found no records in my searches.

I don't know what became of Arthur, but Henry married Ann WHARTON at the Primitive Methodist Chapel in York in December 1874 (he was living in Longdale lane at the time of his marriage). Ann was the daughter of Robert WHARTON & Eleanor BELL.

Henry & Ann came to Australia on board the 'Peterborough' in 1878.

ANY information on the SMITH side would be greatly appreciated and a big surprise indeed!

Regards,
Jeff Carroll
Martinsville, NSW, Australia.

[trish1120]

Hi Jeff,
This might take a little time to sort out

1861 Census John snr is born 1826 London, Jane 1826 Wilts, and  Henry 1853 in WHITBY.

I think it is possible Jane is a second wife and Henry and Arthur have different Mothers.

I found this christening;
Henry SMITH
06 May 1853, Whitley, Yorkshire
Parents JOHN and MARIA

There is also a submitted record, parents John Smith and Jane BROWN, 27 January 1851, Sleights by Whitby, Yorkshire

It just makes me curious as there is such a large gap between children.

Trish

[trish1120]

Have you found them in 1861? John Henrys POB is wrong on this Census but it is otherwise interesting.

1861 Census
Private Dwelling, Eston, Yorkshire
RG9/3653/94/4

John SMITH, head, widower, 36, iron stone miner, born Bucks, Cookham
Mary Ann BROWN, daugh-in-law, unm, 16, domestic servant, Surrey, Guildford
Reuben SMITH, son, unm,10, worker in iron mines, Yorks, Whitby
HENRY SMITH, son, unm, 8, scholar, Yorks, Whitby
Ann MATHER, house keeper, 31, dress maker, NBL, Linton
Isaac Mather, son, unm, 6mths, Durham, Staindrop


I think we can rule out the christening in 1851, parent Jane Brown as he goes on to marry in 1872 Mary Tyneman.

I think to be sure you need to purchase Henrys Birth Cert;

Henry BROWN
June 1853
Whitby 9d 370

This seems to fit with the christening to John and Maria.

Trish

[trish1120]

Birth;
Reuben SMITH
Whitby

Possible Marriage;
John SMITH
June 1847
Whitby 24 666
On same page Maria THOMAS

[jeffreyjoecarroll]

Dear Trish,

Thank you for your assistance & interest. I have in the past seen the 1853 christening with John & Maria as parents but dismissed it as Henry's death certificate definitely has Jane listed as his mother. In hindsight however, he died in Australia and the informant may have got the information incorrect if there was a step mother as well.

For some reason I've never come across Henry's birth record before....don't know why.

I think you are right about purchasing certificate.

I've ordered both Henry's birth & John & Maria's marriage.

I know it's quite common, but I see Maria's name is listed as Martha on LDS website for Reuben's christening.

Also wondering who the Mary Ann Brown is - daughter in law??? I wonder if she has any connection to Jane Brown? What son has she married? Maybe it is Jane's daughter and should be read as a step daughter?, though John is listed as a widower. These sorts of questions are hard enough, but with names like Smith, Brown & Thomas it's even worse!!

Food for thought, thanks.... you've spurned me on. Shall keep this post up to date with findings.

Best regards,
Jeff

[trish1120]

Hi Jeff,
Yes, I am sure it should read Mary Ann Brown step-daughter. I have tried to trace her back with little success.

I will see what else I can find.
Please do let us know what info certs. contain.

There are several possible deaths for Maria Brown in right time-frame so hard to pin down.

You are right Maria/Martha were often interchangable so christening of Reuben is probably right.
If he remarried to Jane? Brown it would be a small timeframe. Probably after 1861 Census where he is a widower and before 1871 where Jane appears.

Cheers,
Trish

[trish1120]

As I dont know what census you have found them on I am posting this. It might just be a coincidence but here goes;

1851 Census
Henrietta St
Whitby, Yorkshire

John SMITH, head, mar, 26, Fisherman, born London, Middlesex
Maris Smith, wife, mar, 30, fishermans wife, born Surrey, Richmond
Reuben Smith, son, 5, born Whitby

Ok a bit of lateral thinking and points;
Maris is actually MARIA on image, interesting that she is born Surrey as Mary Ann Brown is born Guildford, Surrey c 1846.

Could Reuben be 5days instead of years? He seems to be christened April 1851, Whitby.
1851 census was taken 31 March 1851. There is a birth reg.
Reuben SMITH,  March 1851, Whitby, 24 598
It is possible that Henry changed occp to feed his growing family!

This is such a confusing family not to mention Smith and Brown I really feel for you.

Cheers,
Trish ( in Sydney)

[jeffreyjoecarroll]

Hi Trish,

The ironstone mines took off in the early 1850's so it is quite possible he changed occupations. It probably would have brought in more money than fishing.

Reuben is the only name that stands out a and suggests it may be more than a coincidence & it wouldn't be the first time I've seen errors on census forms.

I initially found the family on the 1871 & 1881 census - minus Reuben from memory. I have the paperwork awaiting unpacking from a recent house move (left Sydney for West Lake Macquarie a few weeks ago - though still working in Sydney CBD).

We'll await the certificates to see if anything comes up there. I've found nothing that relates to Cookham, Berks....will chase Maria in Richmond.

Again, thanks for your interest, you really have given me my second wind with this one. All the Australian Smiths have now passed away or lost to the winds in WA so there is no-one to ask.

Best,
Jeff

[jeffreyjoecarroll]

Meant to add Trish that Arthur's name came from the only paperwork my grandfather Stanley Smith left about his family. It mentioned that his grandfather, Henry Smith had a younger brother Arthur and Henry went on to name one of his sons Arthur in Australia.