German Pork Butchers in Britain

[Histres]

 Hello Richard,

Thank you very much for this interesting and profound answer. Stay online as I am just about to write an e-mail to you, containing some more information on Rüblingen families and their involvement in the network.
Best wishes
Histres

[rebew]

Richard

I don't think the Frederike Roger you mention is a sister of Karl F.E. & Frederick C Roger. They were 2 of a family of 10 Rogers from Niedernhall but  Frederike is not listed (source Glen Roger). The 1891 Census records Fred Rogers (Frederick C) servant working for a family named Howson in Barrow in Furness. He was a porkbutcher and married to a Sophie Weber (Bradford 1993). They had 6 children 3 of whom had died at the time of the 1911 census. Thanks to Swissgirl I now have 3 of their daughters, Florence born in  Birmingham, Maude bn in Biddulp and Winifred in Barrow in Furness. So far I have had no success in tracing these 3 children. There appears to have been a number of Roger(s) familys in Barrow in Furness so without ordering a lot of marriage certs I can't progress. Anybody any ideas?

Rebew

[RichardFunk]

Rebew

The Rogers are very confusing. I have also had contact with Glen Roger, and the only possible sibling that Fredericke could have been to Karl died in infancy.

As I have mentioned I have Fredericke's marriage certificate, which doesn't list her father. The witnesses are Charles Schuman (possibly a baker who turns up in London, in 1901 I think as Frederick C. Schuman). The other is Jane Wilson. I know that one of Fredericke's children married a Wilson, although I don't know his name. Not much to go on with that. I imagine that if she is not a sister of Karl, then she must be a cousin or close relative. It seems too coincidental for there to be two Roger families from Germany in Barrow/Ulverston and them not to be related.

The whole wedding seems to be somewhat irregular. I just can't figure out why she wouldn't give her father's name and it seems odd that one of the witnesses is English, as Fredericke can't have been over here long and Hohenlohe migrants tended to stick to their own community. Furthermore she doesn't have a profession, just spinster, this too is irregular as I would expect her to be in domestic service. It begs the question that if she wasn't working, who was supporting her? One of the other Roger families? Then why aren't there any Roger witnesses on the certificate?

Leonard Kantenwein also lies about his age. He says that he is 21 when he is actually 19. My guess at the reason for this is that the legal age to marry without parental concent was 21, and as his parents lived in Germany, this would not be easy to get. I also think that they were under a certain amount of pressure to get married, as they are married on 2nd Nov 1879 and have their first child between Jan-Mar of 1880. Interestingly two of their children have the middle name Jane - not very German.

Richard

[rebew]

Hi Richar,

I would agree with you that the 2 Roger families are related.

It would be the norm for ethnic groups or nationalities to reside in the same localities of their adopted country. It has also been the way and still is up to the present day.

Regarding the wedding cert, I too have come across this. The sister of Sophie  Roger nee Weber (bn in Germany) married a Walther Judd in Yorkshire. The father of the Bride, also German,  is not listed for some reason.

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[johnbhoy]

I'm just 'bumping' this thread, incase there are others out there who are unaware of it, and are searching for German pork butcher ancestors 

[Kathiesummers]

Hi - if anybody has a copy of either the "German Pork Butchers in Britain" book by Sue Gibbons, or the article "Germans in Sheffield 1817-1918" by G Newton, I'd really appreciate knowing if there are any references to the Ebert or Kramer families.  I can't find the article online as I don't have an ATHENS login.

My ancestor Frederick Ebert (born c1773) & his wife Martha moved to Sheffield from London around 1820, where a John Michael Ebert was already living - both Frederick & John Michael were pork butchers, and one daughter married Frederick Kramer, born Germany c1810, also a pork butcher.  I'm guessing the Eberts were German too, but have nothing concrete.

I've learned so much today about the migrations form Wurttemburg, thanks!

[Histres]

Hello Kathie,
Welcome to the thread. Both families, the Eberts and the Kramers are mentioned in Gerald Newton's booklet. Gerald Newton collected all entries of German pork butchers in the 19th century Sheffield directories. The entries on the Eberts are as follows:

Ebert, Michael, pork butcher, Change-alley. 1817
Ebert, Michael, pork, bacon and ham dealer, wholesale and retail, 15 Change alley. 1825
Ebert, Frederick, pork, bacon and ham dealer, wholesale and retail, 1 Pinstone street. 1825
Ebert, William, pork butcher, 73 Broomhall road. 1863, 1864
Ebert, Mr Charles, Crooksmoor side. 1864
Ebert, Mrs Frances, 14 Gell street. 1849,1864
Ebert, Charles, professor of languages, 3 Hartshead; h Steel Bank. 1864

It seems that the Eberts came from Künzelsau in Hohenlohe, North-Eastern Baden Württemberg, Germany.
In the official description of the Künzelsau district, the chronicler confirms in 1883: “There is specifically a considerable migration to England. At first it was Johann Michael Ebert, born in 1771, then Christian Friedrich Ebert, born in 1775, who went as pork butchers to England. Both were able to get into good conditions. After that they were followed by many young men who made their fortune there and were fond of returning in later years”.
This quote was translated from: Beschreibung des Oberamts Künzelsau. Hrsg. v.d. K. statistisch-topographischen Bureau. Stuttgart: W. Kohlhammer, 1883. XI,  911 Seiten. (Reprint: Magstadt: Horst Bissinger, 1969).

In Gerald Newton's Sheffield list there are 19 entries on the Kramers. If you wished I could send you them by e-mail. For that you've got to do two more posts for enabling me to send a personal message.
I suppose that the Kramer (originally Krämer) family also came from Künzelsau or not far away from there.
As soon as we have some personal contact I will send you the address of Künzelsau's town archivist, who can probably find out more on the Eberts and their forefathers in Künzelsau.
I personally would be interested in photos of the butcher shops or in letter heads of the butcher's firms. Perhaps you have got such material saved in your family.

Kind regards
Histres
 

[Kathiesummers]

Oh wow, that's fantastic, thank you so much.  I had almost given up on this line.  It doesn't surprise me that Frederick had another first name - Johan Michael seem's to have mainly used Michael, and the Kramers also had a habit of dropping their first names.

(John) Michael Ebert was in Sheffield at least by 1801 as his son was buried there aged 3.  (Christian) Frederick Ebert had children in London in 1815 & 1817, but appears in Sheffield in 1822 Baines directory

Sadly I have no photos from my dad's family - but there a drawing on Ancestry of Pinstone Street in 1840 - I will upload & send to you when I can.
Regards
Kathie

[rebew]

Hi  Histress,

All within an  hour and a half, WOW.

Well done

Rebew