Married or not?

[jakky]

Hi,

As I have searched for what seems years for the marriage certificate of Samuel Thomas & Ann Hallam.  I wonder if they lied on their son Benjamin's birth certificate.

He was Christened at Holy Trinity Hull in 1859. 20th October.

it states they were married, in fact I can find no record of them anywhere.

I am just about ready to give up on these two, but it will end my search for my maternal granddad, Benjamin.

I am at a complete loss


any ideas?

thanks Jakky

[casalguidi]

Hi Jakky

Don't suppose it's one of those where Ann had been married before but not noted on Benjamin's birth certificate?  What was her maiden name? Have you found them on all the available census returns?  Did they have other children?

Casalguidi

[jakky]

Thanks for the reply Cas.

I have not found them on any census and it says on the certificate her maiden name was Hallam/Hallan.

It seems I can never find them, there are Hallams in Hull, but I can't make a connection with Ann.

I have this sinking feeling Sam was from Wales

I truly am fed up with these two.

Sam. was dead on Benjamins wedding certificate in Fleetwood Lanc in 1894, but there is no record of his death in the Fylde or in Yorkshire,

never mind eh!

Thanks for the support ,,

Jakky

[casalguidi]

Hi Jakky

I expect you already have these but the only Ben THOMASs that I can find 1871-1901 census born Hull were:

1901 age 41 in Lincolnshire (aboard ship?)

1881 age 20 (aboard ship)

1871 age 10 (aboard ship)

This would lead me to believe that there was possibly only the one Benjamin THOMAS born Hull c1859/1861 

The 1871 entry:

William THOMAS 30 widower master b.Dursbury Yorkshire
Benjamin son 10 boy - master's son b.Hull

They were aboard the Mary Dewsbury in Queen's Dock, Hull.

Do these occupations fit with the info you have?  If so, is it possible that Samuel was also known as William or vice versa?

Looks like you really need an 1861 census entry.  Do you have an actual address for Benjamin's birth/baptism 1859 that might help somebody locate them?

Casalguidi

[jakky]

HI casalguidi,

I have come across this Ben (masters son) before,
but I assumed he was another Benjamin. He was born in Easton Yorks in1858.

On my Ben's birth certificate it states that Samuel was a fruiterer and they lived in Pig Alley off Humbers Street Hull.

Another kind soul looked for them for me but there was no mention of them.

I hoped the Ben in Gorleston on the Ebeneezer in 1881 is my Ben, or at least it is wishful thinking, I moved to live right on the harbour edge in this place and can sit in bed and look at the ships.

It would have been lovely to think he had been here in 1881. .

I could only find his wife Catherine and my mother in 1901 in Fleetwood, so assumed he was at sea, where did you find him? I couldn't find the ship section.

He, Ben, died in 1915 at Preston where he was a Tug Boat captain aged 45. The ages do not add up, but we know this happens.If born in 1859 he was 15years older than his wife, so maybe he lied.



There was a Pamelia Thomas born to parents of the same name two years before Ben at Holy Trinity, but I cannot find anything of her either,



In my mums Bible it says Ben was born in Hull Oct29th 1866. But I think he got that wrong as I can find no Ben in 1866 The birth cert. of 1859 says 27th Nov.


If I could only find a marriage certificate or death certificate for Sam I would be happy, but so would we all. As he was dead by 1894 Ben's marriage I assumed he had died at Fleetwood, but again there appears to be no record of his death.

Thank you for your help, most appreciated and I bet your bored by now


Jakky

[casalguidi]

Hi Jakky

This certainly isn't adding up is it 

The Ben THOMAS that I found in 1901 is listed as THOMAS in one index (can't access original) yet as Ben THORNES at http://www.census.pro.gov.uk - age 41 born Hull, keel captain at Keadby, Lincolnshire.  A keel appears to be have been a freight barge, mostly for carrying coal on the Tyne according to the dictionary.

So the Catherine L THOMAS in Fleetwood 1901 is definitely Benjamin's wife 

Can you list everything that is on Benjamin's marriage certificate ie. what was his age, occupation, address, father's name & Occupation, marriage witnesses?

The information about Bemjamin's death - was that known by the family or something that you have unearthed?

I assume the information in your mother's bible to have been provided by him or his wife 

Look forward to your reply

Casalguidi

[jakky]

Hi you little star

right I can't find his marriage certificate as yet, but I know he was 20,26,28, they couldn't decide what it was could have looked like any of these.

He was a fisherman married Catherine linger barcock at St Peters Fleetwood on 29th Oct 1894.she was 20.

His father was a Furniture Broker?but dead.

Ben's address was 19 Blakiston Street, but I can't find no. 19 Blakiston st. any number but.

He died aged 46 on 15th Feb.1915 at Preston after falling in the dock and catching cold address was 23 Mersey Street Preston.

An old aunt aged 99. told me that he was from Wigan!!

and he was a Scots Freemason and had a brother who was a high up Freemason who got him the job on the Tug Boats in Preston.

On the marriage certificate I remember a Rhoda Robinson when I looked for her in Hull, she? was in the poorhouse and her daughter was a Thomas. or had been in it.

Another Benjamin Thomas with a Sam and Anne for Parents born in 1865  was a dock gate shipkeeper,

this family minus the mother end up in Birkenhead in 1881 with him at 15 still a shipkeeper.

With the 'scots freemason' in mind I just wondered.

The dock office men at Preston said in' The History of the Ribble' there was a list of tug boats and crew, but they couldn't find a Benjamin Thomas but the boats at that time were the Enterprise and the Energy.

Whatever,
 Grandma ends up again in Fleetwood, maybe she never left, and just Ben lived in Preston
Fleetwood is my birthplace.

I went to school in Blakiston Street infants so I know it's there, but what has happend to no.19.

I assume Sam  a furniture broker was living at the same address, he certainly was not in Hull.


You have made me realize how unorganized I am, so I am going to make a concerted effort to put all in order.

Maybe I just missed no.19, I have looked for so long it wouldn't suprise me.

Heartfelt thanks


Jakky

[jakky]

I forgot the other Benjamin that ended up in Birkenhead was born in Hutchesontown Glasgow.

I just wonder why my Granddad would have been a 'scots freemason'  I have a photo of him with  a freemason tag on his watchchain, with very hardworking grubby fingernails.

Jakky

[casalguidi]

Yes, there seems to be something here that isn't quite adding up.

I found 19 Blakiston Street in 1891 - it was the BARCOCK family that were living there.

There are a list of freemasonry lodgers in Fleetwood and other nearby areas here.  If you think that your grandfather may have belonged to one of them then they should have some details or him or his brother.

http://www.westlancsfreemasons.org.uk/pages/groups/lodgelist.htm

Also, an email address and telephone number here:

http://www.masonichall.org.uk/Freemasonry%20on%20the%20Fylde.html

I'm not sure what you mean by Scot's freemasonry nor by a freemason tag?

You seem to have quite a lot of information on him and I'm sure that it'll all start coming together once you have got everything in order and established just what is correct.

Best wishes

Casalguidi