Colney Hatch and Freedom of Information

[loo]

I understand the records of Colney Hatch are closed for 100 years.  That will not come, in the case that concerns me, until long after I am dead.

Does anyone have any experience with trying to gain access to records which are not that old?  The person I am concerned with died there in 1963.  I don't know when she was admitted, but it was after 1921. 

She left only her husband, who has also died.  There were no surviving children - at least no birth records for any.

I would have a credible argument to being next of kin, although there are several other people who are in the same relationship to this person.

Do you think there is any possibility that I would succeed?

Please tell me your war stories!

[Valda]

Hi

It might be useful for you to read this topic posted recently on the beginners board

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,420166.0.html

The death of the person you are interested occurred less than 50 years ago. The death of the person being sought in the topic listed was in 1931. It gives some indication of the necessary evidence needed to be produced to gain access to such sensitive records.


Regards

Valda

[loo]

Thanks, Valda,
Clearly this is a daunting business with uncertain rules and outcomes.  Being thousands of miles away does not make me optimistic either.
How does one prove a negative, i.e. that the person had no descendants?  In this case, the woman had one baby who died in infancy ca 1920.  I have looked but did not find any further birth records, so I assume she had no children.  I also have not found any obituaries for her or her husband, who died a few years after her, but i would not expect to find one, as I've never found one for anyone in this family.  His name is on her death cert.  Nobody living knows of any children;  they don't know anything much about her at all except that she existed.  My mother and uncle would be closer in line than myself, but there would be no problem getting one of them to officially apply;  there is no one closer as far as I know or imagine.

[Valda]

Hi

What information does her death certificate give? Many older people were placed in asylums because of dementia.


Regards

Valda

[loo]

The cause of death was bronchopneumonia, old cerebral softening, and epilepsy.  She was 71.  Obviously she had suffered some degeneration, possibly a stroke etc.  Strokes are common in this family.  On the other hand, she may have been in the institution for some time before she developed these complications.  That's why I would like to see the record.
Her husband was living and named on the death certificate, along with his address, which was not the same as hers.  That was my first clue, as the death cert does not give any hint that her address was an institution!   It only gave the street address.
It seems odd to me that nobody in the family seems to know anything of her after about the time her baby died, 1920.  That raises my suspicion that she could have been in hospital a long time.

[Valda]

Hi

Searching the records of MH94 as described in the link to the other posting would be easier if you have access to The National Archives. Those records would supply you with the information you are interested in and since they give no detail of the medical condition of patients are not governed by the 100 year ruling.


Regards

Valda

[loo]

I am across the sea from TNA.
I am really thinking about how to clear the pathway for the FOI request so that, whenever I get there, it will be quicker to get what I want.
I had thought the medical records were held at the municipal level.  I do want to know more than just when she was admitted, although even that would be of value.
Thanks, Valda.

[Valda]

Hi

Colney Hatch like most of the big old Victorian asylums has been closed, hence what records that survive have been deposited in the county archives, in this case the LMA.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=53&hospital=colney+hatch&town=&searchdatabase.x=90&searchdatabase.y=9


The LMA may never let you look at the clinical patient files yourself, because if they are written in the same way as for older case book files that I have looked at, they are written with other patients' records in the same book/volume. This may not be the case for records in the second half of the C20th. I have no experience of clincial patients records in the second half of the C20th. What they may do if they agree to release some/all the information is copy the case file for this particular patient, or extract some of the information depending how sensitive they considered what is written there. To find the medical records they would need to find the patient admissions number. They would do this by searching the admissions/discharge book that covers her date of death since that date is known. Again you definitely wouldn't be allowed to search this because of other patients' names and information.
Once the admission number is known the medical case file/s can be searched for.

The LMA research services are £40 an hour. They may waiver some of this expense under the FOI (the City of London policy under the FOI appears to be £25 an hour, I'm not sure what the LMA's is, it isn't in the square mile of the City and I can't find any information from them that states it, but this might be an expensive process, on top of whatever evidence you need to produce to prove your relationship and how much that will cost to obtain it).

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/Family_Research/Family+History+Research+Service.htm#cost


City of London guidance on fees for a request under FOI

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Council_and_democracy/Data_protection_and_freedom_of_information/Freedom_of_Information-advice.htm


Each archive will have a slightly different policy (interpretation) on releasing documents and what proof they require. This is The National Archives guidance including guidance to archivists.


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/policy/foi/


The only way to clear any pathway to obtaining access to these records is to begin a dialogue with the LMA. They get many requests/emails etc


'Our basic enquiries service is free for information about what records we hold and what services we supply. All enquiries will be answered in order of receipt, whether they are email, fax, telephone or letter enquiries. We receive more than 2,500 written and telephone enquiries every month, which accounts for the strict queuing of our enquiries. We aim to answer 80% of enquiries within 14 days of receipt, and 100% within 28 days.'



Consequently any dialogue with the LMA that is quite complex could be time consuming.


Regards

Valda

[loo]

Thanks very much for the detailed rundown, Valda. 
It is, as I thought, daunting, and, most frustrating, no way of knowing if they will grant access.
It is not very costly for me to get the documents proving the relationship, as I already have most of them.
But I am still stuck with how to prove that she had no suriving children. 
I think I will write for her husband's death cert, and see if that has any clues, as he died after her.
And perhaps I can find a will for him.  I don't know any other way to prove that they had no surviving children.  Of course, there may be no will. 
Really, I would be delighted to discover that she did have childrenn.  It would be of even greater interest and relevance to find that she did!  But I see no evidence of any.
A friend of mine managed to get a similar record here in Ontario a few years ago, from our Archives.  In that case, the archivists simply blacked out the names of everyone else on the pages in question.
I myself recently got an asylum record here in Ontario for someone who died just over 100 years ago (we too have the 100 year rule).  It was quite inexpensive, and they mailed me the entire record.  I was surprised to see that the other names on some pages were not blacked out, although I am sure that many of them have not been dead 100 years.