John and Philip Fogarty Family

[Jab75]

Hi KG,

Thanks for your reply, that's one interesting website. I've tried to find Rathmacan before on google maps and could only find 3 or 4 houses there. My question is though what is a townland exactly?

Many thanks and best wishes, John.

[Kiltaglassan]

My question is though what is a townland exactly?

Check out this Wikipedia entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townland

KG

[Sinann]

A far less detailed explanation but which also explains other land divisions you may encounter.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-land-divisions.html

[Jab75]

Thanks KG and Sinann!!

[Dale Fogarty]

Hi,
I have only just discovered this thread.

I am researching the connections between FOGARTY families from Rathmacan and the adjoining townland Killeen.

There are at least 3 Philip FOGARTYs with a father John baptised in Kilkenny. The first 2 were baptised in Rathmacan in 1816 and 1830. Philip bap 1830 died in Charleston, South Carolina in 1900. The third one was baptised in 1834 at St Patrick's, Kilkenny. No address is recorded.

Of course there are more with different father's names. Not all of the baptism and marriage records survive.

I'd be interested in the details of the newspaper article that was referred to above.

If anyone one here has connections with Rathmacan and/or Killeen and is interested in following up, please let me know. I'm keen to hear from you.

Thanks
Dale Fogarty

[Jab75]

Hi Dale,

Thanks for your reply.

My Grandfather was involved in the Anti-partition league in St. Helens and in 1952(?) he led a group on a tour of south east Ireland (possibly some kind of fund raising tour). Most of the article is about meeting various people in County Kilkenny and the cause of Irish unity. However one paragraph reads "Mr Fogarty told me that his paternal grandparents came from Tullaroan and he was sorry that he was not able to attend Nowlan Park to see Tullaroan play in the senior hurling championship". His grandmother, Theresa Fleming, came from Inistioge and not Tullaroan but his Grandfather was Philip Fogarty who was born in County Kilkenny around 1837-1841, the son of John Fogarty, a farmer. Although I never found a John or Philip Fogarty in Tullaroan, I found a John Fogarty in Rathmacan. Unfortunately I didn't find a Philip Fogarty at the right time. Philip died in St. Helens in January 1891 aged 53.

I hope that makes sense Dale. Best Wishes, John.

[Dale Fogarty]

Review, summary and responses to all the previous posts on this thread.

schooly
I cannot find a Philip FOGARTY born in Inistioge or Thomastown with a father John in the 1830s
There are only 6 Births/Baptisms in Inistiogue RC Parish 1842-1870
36 in Thomastown RC Parish 1785-1853 NO Philips.

There are only 3 Philips born to a father John in Kilkenny as previously listed but repeated here:
- 1816 Philip Rathmacan John FOGARTY and Elizabeth LALOR
Too early

- 1830 Rathmacan John FOGARTY and Anastatia HOGAN.
John FOGARTY died in 1846 and Anastatia and her children went to America about 1850 after the evictions at Rathmacan (according to a descendant). Their son Philip died in 1900 in America so cannot be the one in Lancashire.

- 1834 Philip St Patrick’s Address not recorded John FOGARTY and Anastatia BURK(E)
(6 children from 1832-1846) Address could be Castleinch.
There is a Philip FOGARTY household in Brownstown (Castleinch) in the 1911 Census. I couldn’t find this family in the 1901 Census. It would be worth checking for any possible relationships with your family and this family by checking the UK censuses for 1891, 1901 and 1911.

The age 53 reported on the death in 1891 is likely to be an underestimate.
 It would help if you could share all the information on the marriage and death records. It would also help to know who he married, when and where.
And then the names of the children in birth order for clues.

In my experience, FOGARTY families tended to follow the naming patterns with a variation in that the first daughter was generally named after the father’s mother rather than the mother’s mother but checking both possibilities is necessary.

hallmark
The extract of gravestones is from Kilmanagh churchyard.
The complete document contains transcriptions of the graves done in the 1970s followed by the index. We are extremely lucky to have this information as many of these stones are no longer legible or even visible/exist. Unfortunately information is missing due to illegibility and some stones being partially buried or damaged. In addition, there are lots of transcription errors and worse, omissions that I found comparing my own transcriptions from the gravestones I could find.

I have been able to identify most of these FOGARTYs on this Index list but not all.


Jab75 John
Thanks for your reply John. Are you able to send me a copy of the newspaper cutting or any information on its source i.e name and date of the Irish newspaper?


John FOGARTY and Catherine SHEEHAN were married 11 Feb 1839 Ballycallan-Kilmanagh, Kilkenny
Witnesses: William SMYTH and Mary KENNY
5 Children
Mary 1839 Ballingarry Village Tipperary Sponsors: Philip FOGARTY and Judith POLLARD
John 1842 Rathmacan Sponsors: Philip FOGARTY and Elizabeth FOGARTY
Judith 1845 Rathmacan Sponsors: Thadeus (Timothy) RYAN and Bridget GRACE
James 1847 Rathmacan Sponsors: John FOGARTY and Catherine HACKETT
Ellen 1852 Rathmacan Sponsors; John GRACE and Judith FOGARTY
NO Philips so I don’t think this family is directly relevant.

There were 10 FOGARTY plots in Rathmacan at the time of the Primary Valuation, May 1849. All of these families (and others) were evicted in 1849 and no longer appear in the Revision or Amended Valuations.
The name Philip while generally uncommon is prevalent in these connected families.

What are the names of your grandparents? and the line of ascent from your grandfather to his grandfather? The names are not clear from your posts. Were they Philip FOGARTY and Theresa FLEMING?

There is a marriage of a Philip FOGARTY to Bridget FLEMING in 1844 Ballycallan-Kilmanagh
Address Dama
3 children
Bridget 1844
James 1846
Margaret 1849

From this it would be reasonable to explore the possibility that Philip’s father could be James. Sometimes John and James are used interchangeably.

Rathmacan is a townland in the parish of Tullaroan. Prior to 1843 it was in the Roman Catholic Parish of Freshford so the early baptisms and marriage can be found in the Catholic parish registers.

My interest is in the families of Philip FOGARTY and Catherine MARNELL who were at Killeen, Kilmanagh which is adjacent to Rathmacan. My working theory has been that these families were connected to each other but I am still trying to establish the actual connections and discover where they went after the evictions and what happened to them all. DNA matching has recently confirmed that there is a relationship.

That’s enough for now.

Given the reference to Rathmacan and Tullaroan, I am really interested to get information from the newspaper  article and your connections.

If you prefer, we can communicate via email.

Thanks again
Dale

[JoeBroderick]

Thanks for your hard work of Fogarty Family Rathmacan/Kimanagh Tullaroan
I looked up Philip's residence 1849 on Griffiths.askaboutireland.ie maps
The residence is south of Tullaroan just west of Raheen and the others closer to Tullaroan.

I want to say Hello to all the Fogartys greetings!
My my ancestor Mary Fogarty lived in Gortnagap listed on the Marriage record.
28 Jan 1850 she married James Brotherick    (Broderick) parish of Tullaroan
she had son Edmund P Broderick on 13 Oct 1850  father listed as James Brawdrick

The Broderick grandparents Tullaroan, Welsh, Morrisy, Nowlan, cousins Delany, Grace, Britts.
migrated to Killoshulan (mt Garret) listed sponsors baptism records: Wallace, Lanigan, Nelly Moresy,
Cashin, Tynan, Eagan, Holohan, Conway.

Fogarty and Brodericks listed small farm, There is a trail building chapels with limestone that suggests
many of the residents had names that were prominent but were given those names without having much financial ability. The stonework families worked together and may have originated from Kells from 1500 and 1600s Probably when the high kings were feuding the migrated north for safety. Our family were land league and food volunteers and had casualties during famine.