Thanks I,m not sure if this is the one. I,m going by the 1851 census Apparently they haven't been found on the 1841 census I'm thinking that maybe he was married before as the oldest children were Eliza age 18 ,John age 15 ,William age 14, Richard age 8 All except Richard were born Thoresley, Lincolnshire. There are 4 more children born in the 1840's all born in Lincolnshire. I'm thinking that my ggrandmother Harriet born about 1841 was the daughter of John And Mary Ann's Shirley