1911 - are there huge gaps?

[Mr. MIGKY]

Hi & welcome, you need to make a min of three post on any of the threads and then you can send Private messages
Migky 

[JustinL]

Hello Frank and a very warm welcome to RC.

I have no relationship to any of the people mentioned in this thread; I simply enjoy helping others research their Jewish roots. In this case I was (am) helping the great-granddaughter of Jane Smolenski, who was Louis/Lewis Bernstein's sister-in-law.

Unfortunately, we are still struggling to trace the the families back to their East European homeland.

Your theory is certainly a possibility worth investigating. Do you know where Israel G. and family originally came from?

Justin

[mooshalah]

Hi Justin (and Mr Migky; thanks for the information on posting),

I don't know very much at all about Israel Grajinski (also variously known as Grajinsky, Grojinski, Graginski, Grofinsky, Grofinski, Grandinsky, Cropinsky, Grojensky and other variants). He first appears as Grojensky marrying Rachel Lippa / Kalmovitch in Liverpool in 1888, and the first - and only - hint of his birthplace is in the 1911 census as "Kishiniff, Russia". He was a tailor. He died 11th February 1933.

I have no further knowledge of him - of his parents, whether he had any siblings or when he arrived in England. I am however interested to learn more, having just this week located one of his great-grandchildren (who knows nothing whatever of Israel).

I have yet to locate Kishiniff - and I'm not sure what I'd learn, even if I did. I've not yet called for his death certificate. This might yield some further information.

Kind regards,

Frank.

[mooshalah]

Continuing the matter of the presence of a Louis Bernstein in the household of Israel Grajinski in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, there is a boarder with the name Lewleyn Bernstein in the Grajinski (spelled Grofinski) home in Liverpool, in the 1891 census.

Frank.

[JustinL]

Hello Frank,

Kishiniff was Kishinev in the Bessarabia province of the Russian Empire. Today, the town is called Chişinau - the capital of independent Moldova. I shall check the Jewish records for the town.

Israel's surname is commonly translitered back into English as Grodzinski - dz forming a 'j' sound. It is thought to be typographical, referring to origins near Grodno (now Hrodna, Belarus). The surname was indeed particularly common in that region.

Do you have that marriage cert from 1888? It will tell his father's name.

Do you have the associated marriage authorisation which will reveal their full Hebrew names?

Would I be right in assuming that the marriage to Rachel was a second marriage? Daughters, Hannah and Lena, born in Warsaw (!), must have been from an earlier marriage.

Referring back to your original conundrum, I think the duplication of names is pure coincidence - however surprising. The ages and occupations of the two Louis Bernsteins are too different. One a cabinet maker b. 1873; the other a tailor b. c1863.

Moreover, Bernstein is a common Jewish surname.

Justin

[mooshalah]

Wow Justin!

You're on the ball, and quick to grasp (at) many things!

No, I've only just discovered all of this stuff - occasioned by the renewed interest of Israel's great-grandson. I'll need to purchase both the marriage certificate and Israel's death certificate. These will certainly give more information. (Do the synagogues - Hope Place Synagogue, Liverpool - keep records that can further illuminate, I wonder?)

Yes, Rachel / Rashke / Marie lived in Warsaw, was previously married to a Libel KALMOVICH (about whom I can find absolutely nothing), and there were two children from this marriage. The story retained (vaguely) within our family is that Libel and Rachel divorced. Since she seems to have been both an extremely religious Jew, but of a fiery and independant disposition, I'll bet that the circumstances of the separation - if true - were intriguing.

I'd love to determine whether this occured (if at all) in Warsaw, or whether Libel and Rachel immigrated to the UK before splitting up.

Ah well; that's the romance and challenge of genealogy.

Regards,

Frank.

[JustinL]

Frank,

The death cert might not reveal all that much. I would suggest you order the marriage authorisation from the United Synagogue.

Click here http://www.rootschat.com/links/09fj/, type 'Grajinski' in the search box at the bottom of the page. Then follow the instructions.

I have attached an explanation of the marriage authorisation.

Another way to determine their full Hebrew names would be to locate their graves.

The story about Rachel and Libel is a very interesting  one; it should have left a paper trail - somewhere! I shall see what records I find in the Warsaw database.

Justin

[mooshalah]

Man, Justin!

You are really on the ball. It's 2.30 am here in Australia, and all the lights are burning where I'm sitting!

I've just ordered the marriage authorisation in good faith. They've taken my money, but nowhere does it indicate what I need to do now, to actually obtain the certificate! I guess I'll receieve it in my email - but it doesn't actually seem to say.

Wow. Such aplomb! I've been dying for years to be able to access records in Warsaw. I long ago hit the wall that non-Polish (or Russian, or whatever) -speakers ultimately hit; the profound inability to delve back into the central-European records, and continue the search. My Lippa ancestors (Rashke / Rachel LIPPA / KALMOVITCH being one) are from Warsaw (or Lodz), but it's as if I now stand on the narrow strip of sand, more solid land behind me which is at least potentially searchable or knowable, looking out in frustration at the sea of the past, and unable to wade out even a few feet. I was told that most of the Jewish records in Warsaw were destroyed in the Holocaust and that the Lodz records were pretty chaotic, so I've resigned myself to not knowing anything further past around 1890, when my LIPPA ancesters started arriving in dribs and drabs from Poland.

Thank you for your advice, and for considering looking into the Warsaw records.

Frank.

[JustinL]

Morning or rather good afternoon Frank. Did you get any sleep?

People that have recently ordered MAs have received scanned images by email. Did you provide an email address?

The database that I am referring to is the one created by Jewish Records Indexing - Poland, which you can access directly http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/jriplweb.htm or via JewishGen. You can merrily search away too. You need to be aware, however, the names are spellt in current Polish having been transliterated from Russian or Yiddish/Hebrew.

So, here's a few questions for you:

How do you know that Rachel's Yiddish name was Rashke?
Was her father Mosiek or Yitschak; what was your source for either name and that of her mother?
Do you have her mother's UK death cert?
What makes you think that the LIPPA family came from Lodz?

Now to Kishinev. I suppose I do not have to recommend RomSIG to you. The group seems pretty active and should be a lot of help to you.

Few records from Kishinev are available online. However, the great news is that many have survived and are held in the Moldova National Archives. Have a look at these webpages:

http://www.rtrfoundation.org/search.php   

http://www.rtrfoundation.org/archps4.shtml   

http://www.rtrfoundation.org/webart/Mold-arch-a.pdf   

Jewish Roots in Ukraine and Moldova (http://www.rtrfoundation.org/uk1.shtml)

http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/kishinev/kishinev-faq.html

I fear you could well be right about the Warsaw records; the Nazis virtually razed the city to the ground before the Russians moved in.

How are you progressing with all your other Ukrainian lines?

Cheers, Justin