Author Topic: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)  (Read 5647 times)

Offline Lunula

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Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« on: Wednesday 24 February 10 02:11 GMT (UK) »
I am looking for confirmation of a burial for Robert Rogers - he is an American military pioneer from the French & Indian wars (he was a loyalist to the crown of England during the American Revolution). He was born in Massachusetts in 1732. He spent many of his later years traveling back & forth from England to the US - many of those years spent in debtor's prison in London (Fleet, I believe).

I have his probate record from Nov 1795 and it's a bit difficult to read; however, it does mention that he was " of the Parish of St. Mary Newington in the County of Surrey" -- I found these burial records on Ancestry.com; however, I couldn't find an entry for Robert Rogers (or Rodgers) in ALL of 1795. I have sources stating he was buried in a church yard in what is now the Elephant & Castle Inn and from my research, it sounds like St Mary, Newington fits that bill perfectly.

Can anyone provide any assistance or advice? This man is my 6-great uncle.

Thank you!

Offline PrueM

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Re: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 24 February 10 03:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi Lunula  :)

Welcome to Rootschat!

When you say you have Robert's probate record, do you also have his will?  This may mention where he wants to be buried.
Probate may have taken some time to be granted, so have you thought about searching in 1794 in case he died the previous year?

I believe the church of St Mary Newington was at the Elephant and Castle (note:  not an Inn!  The Elephant and Castle is a locality in the south of London).  The old church was demolished and a new one built a short distance away.  I don't know what happened to the churchyard but someone here will know.

Cheers
Prue

Offline Lunula

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Re: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 24 February 10 03:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi there!

I actually went to the National Archives online and got a copy of the probate-- it's not much of a will, as he died destitute and the only thing mentioned is "one hundred and forty four days pay as Lieutenant Colonel of the Queens Regiment of Rangers." He was in and out of debtor's prison b/w 1771-1774, as well as being court martialed in 1767 (he was acquitted of all charges, but wasn't released  until two years later). He returned to America in 1775, only to return to England in 1782. It is thought that he spent more time in debtor's prison up until his death in 1795. My sources have his DOD as 18 May 1795 and the probate I have is from Nov 1795.

There is no mention of a burial, just that he is of the Parish of St. Mary Newington in the County of Surrey. I will check the records from 1794, just in case. Thank you!

And thanks for clearing up the location of the church -- one of my sources had that it was in Liverpool (but I think he meant that it was near Liverpool St, perhaps?) - and I thought that it might just be the Elephant & Castle locale rather than the Inn or pub -- just a lot of misinformation, which is why I am so determined to find out whatever I can about him! He is actually quite famous in military circles in America and I find it so sad that he died destitute and forgotten a country away, even though he expressed his desire (apparently) many times to return to America in his final years.

Offline PrueM

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Re: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 24 February 10 03:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi Lunula  :)

A bit more info after some online digging...the old church of St Mary Newington was demolished in 1876.  Its churchyard remained unbuilt upon and is these days a park.  Southwark Borough Council's website has this info about it:

St Mary's Newington
Newington Butts, SE17
Once a large churchyard, St Mary's Newington has been transformed under the Elephant and Castle regeneration scheme into an extremely popular and well-used park. It consists of a thriving children's playground with many natural play features, a central grass area surrounded by large London Plane trees and a plaza area with seating and raised planters.

There are various monumental inscriptions from the old churchyard available online, but Robert is not mentioned - which isn't surprising, for if he was buried there, and if he was a pauper at death, he would have been buried in a pauper's grave, most likely shared with other poor unfortunates, at parish expense, and therefore would have had no grave marker.

He should still be listed in the burials for the parish, though, so it may be that he died elsewhere and not within the parish of St Mary Newington.

Added:  an article about the regeneration of the old churchyard - the bottom of the page has a map showing location.  http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3296

Added (again):  this fabulous old map shows the churchyard towards the bottom of the page, just above the copyright watermark:  http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/greenwoodpages/greenwoodsouth10b.html


Offline imamatthews

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Re: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 22 November 12 20:56 GMT (UK) »
Hello Lunula

The story of Robert Rogers is a TRAGEDY!! He was a man who was very ahead of his time and suffered the usual fate of this dilemma. Left to his own devices, he made several political miscalculations and will forever pay for those mistakes. Conversely, his mental and physical strength and focus was acutely beyond extraordinary and serves as a supreme inspiration. Lt. Col. Rogers had enormous charisma, and led by example, certifying him as a leader of historical proportions. It was envy and prejudice, harbored by some of his superiors that finally broke this man into obscurity, at the time of his death. Rest in Peace Great Warrior and Freedom Fighter. You will be forever remembered as a Great American!!!!

Lt. Col Robert E Rogers was 250 years ahead of his time. No one at the time, fully appreciated or comprehended the significance of his concepts of organization and warfare. No one thought for example, that target practice shooting, served ANY useful purpose other than to waste ammunition!

Growing up in rural, southern New Hampshire in the 18th century, there were few educational or career opportunities available!! Prejudice, envy and politics by his military commanders, destroyed this American hero. This Master of the Wilderness and the Frontier was taken down and broken, by politicians and bureaucrats. He was no match for the predatory politician. After 10 years in a debtor prison and then dying in obscurity, it is difficult for me to imagine a more tragic or sadder ending for this extraordinarily, fascinating individual!! He was screwed by the Americans and the British who also looked down upon him as a Catholic, and a crude, illiterate "woodsy" of Scorch-Irish, descent! He wrote extensive journals and the content demonstrates a clear and precise inclination toward orderly thinking.


As for his burial, I read that most likely Robert Rogers' remains have been lost. When the old Church cemetary was relocated, buriel records that did survive made it possible to relocate those individuals. The others remain in the present day playground. This further illustrates my position that Lt Col Robert Rogers' legacy is a shameful and very sad tragedy. Other than the Military Special Forces, a few historians and desandants, no one else cares. Don't hold your breath for Gov't money to recover his remains and provide the proper buriel his richly deserves. It is only through hindsight that this man, who grew up in a time and place with negligble oppurtunity and significant hardships, can be recognized as a truly extraordinary person. We don't remember Gen Gage or the others who politically destroyed this man. And yes, I do freely acknowledge he unwittingly assisted these scoundrels, with his unwillingness to live within the rules of civilization. We in America will not forget.

Offline CCRAIL

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Re: Burial record help - Rogers (d. 1795)
« Reply #5 on: Monday 17 December 12 15:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Not sure if you already have this info but the link below appears to show he is not completely forgotten and it gives some info ref his death.

Hope this helps
ccrail

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=50372309
Coe: Middlesex, Surrey, Norfolk, Suffolk – Roll: Suffolk – Hawes: (Hawse)  Norfolk – Burson: Berkshire – Dodson: Surrey – Groves: Sussex, Surrey – Wilson: West Riding – Coleman: Somerset, Gloucestershire – Stanbury: Somerset – Hutton: Oxon – Stott: (Statt).  Devon – Martin: Bucks, Surrey – Henden: Surrey - Starling, Whitaker, Symonds, Flack: Cambs.