Hall & Milner - Bradford 1850s

[cannonhill]

Thanks Heywood

I will take the plunge and order the marriage certificate. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As to the driver for Charles to go to NZ, I don't think he arrived until around 1880 - some 9 years after that census record. That was a calculation based on his death record where in NZ they used to have to state how many years they had been in the country at the time of death. Could even have been later as the first child born was 1885 (my grandfather).

Thank you once again for all your help. Most appreciated.
Bill

[heywood]

Hi Bill,

I just had another look and still can't spot him in 1881. Could he have gone to New Zealand via Australia or somewhere else perhaps?
Did he marry in New Zealand?

I think the marriage certificate is worth getting- for its historical value if nothing else but hope that it supplies us with a father's name. There is a possibility for Thomas Henry in 1841 as, it looks like, an apprentice to a Grocer which fits in with the whole scene- both Milners and Halls being in that kind of trade.

good night
Kath

[cannonhill]

Hi Kath

Many thanks for the address of FreeBMD site. I will go on and order that marriage certificate this morning.

With regard to heading to NZ, Charles married Mary Alice Spillard in NZ in 1883. How or when he got there I do not know, but it was in time for him to find and marry Mary. Whether Thomas Henry Hall and Eliza Hall (Milner) also went I don't know, but doubt. They would have been getting on a bit to start a new life. However, in saying that, I have yet to track down their deaths here in the UK at this point.

As for potential location of Thomas in 1841, you are right, there is every chance at that age he would be apprenticed in the family business. He would be about 16 at the time. Later he has gone on to work in the cashier roles. Would appreciate that entry to evaluate.

I had set myself a year to write this family-wide history book (a not for publication version) but having delved into our UK ancestors the information deepens and commitment to getting answers almost hypnotic. Most fascinating. So thank you.

[heywood]

He's not in a (his own) family business but he is the only Thomas Henry Hall in  a search and is the right age and area. Obviously people did not always use their middle name so it is a bit tenuous.

I have just had to look again at the meaning of the slashes on the census sheets and always have to check 
"a single slash between households within a building and a double slash separating households in separate buildings."

1841 Class: HO107; Piece 1314; Book: 9;  Folio: 33; Page: 1
Kirkgate, Otley
/
Bathsheba Kitchen 30 yrs Female servant born in county
Thomas Henry Hall 15 yrs  Ap
//

It's not very informative - not even whether born in county but the single and double slashes indicates that these two are in the same building as William Forster, Grocer and his family.
However, the next entry is a Draper and family so suffice it to say, that somehow this Thomas seems to be bound up with trade.

[heywood]

Well now - I am sure that all this makes sense to you but here is a surprise for me. I was looking at the Family Trees on Anc. and there was a public tree which is inacessible but had your family names in Manchester. I have just seen it now in 1871 

1871 RG10; Piece: 4007; Folio: 24; Page: 40
Manchester
There is amongst the 'new' children another Frederick William aged 4 yrs so presumably the older F W dies 1861-1867.

1881 RG11; Piece: 3938; Folio: 9; Page: 11
Eliza is a widow.
The only death I can see in Manchester is Thomas Hall 46 yrs in 1876 

[heywood]

1891 RG12; Piece: 3199; Folio 145; Page 39

21 Portman Street Moss Side Manchester

Eliza Hall head widow 62 yrs living on own means b Armley
Blanche Hall 29 yrs
Frederick W Hall 24 yrs Stock Broker's cashier
Florence M Hall 22 yrs
Clarissa E Hall 19 yrs
children all born Manchester

1901 RG13; Piece: 3672; Folio: 108; Page: 11
17 Hartington Road Chorlton cum Hardy

Eliza Hall 72 yrs Living on own means
Blanche Hall 39yrs living on own means
Frederick W Hall 34yrs stock broker's cashier

Free BMD has a death for an Eliza 73 yrs in 1902

[cannonhill]

Dear Kath

My goodness, that is an impressive list of family members and information about their lives. Thank you. Interested to see that Thomas Henry Hall seemed to be billeted out from what would appear to be as soon as he was of working age. So searching for him amongst a family load of Halls would not necessarily have worked.

Was a little unsure if the death notice you found in Manchester in 1876 was him if the death age was 46. If he was born in 1825 then he would have been 51 rather than 46. Do you think there might have been a bit of an age issue or perhaps was this someone else.

I now have a much greater idea of Thomas's life and that of Charles leading up to when he emigrated. That is marvellous. I get the impression that this particular arm of the family (only one) was not completely up against it financially. Nice to read.

Might now, apart from trying to find Charles heading off to the colonies, find out more about this plethora of Halls that I am related to here in the UK. Interesting for me is that virtually all the names that appear in the information you provided me, are repeated in the next generation down in NZ.  Thank you once again so much.
Bill

[heywood]

Hi Bill,
that's what bothered me with the names at first. Sometimes you see that people 'adopt' a whole load of family and at first I thought that this was what had happened and the tree for some reason has been removed.
Then, when I did a further search, they turned up in Manchester. The air on the other side of the Pennines (the right side  ) obviously breathed new life into Thomas and Eliza and they embarked on a whole new family.
Kath 
I agree with the death -wasn't sure at all but I think it was the only one in the time frame- you could check again.