Army rank

[annaS]

I have a great uncle who served  his time in the Army Ordnance Corp and when he left his rank was decribed as 'conductor'. 

Several years later as a mourner at a relatives funeral he described himself as 'captain'.  Was  he promoting himself or was 'conductor' an equivalent of 'captain'?

I would be very interested if someone were to enlighten me.

In anticipation, Anna

[km1971]

Hi Anna

On the face of it he has promoted himself. Conductor was the senior non-commissioned rank in the RAOC. Captain is a commissioned rank. However you should also check the London Gazette website as he may have received a commission in a part-time outfit after leaving the AOC. Or he was discharged (as a Conductor) to enable him to be commissioned the next day. Or he may have been a Captain in the Home Guard in WW2.

Here is an interesting link about the rank of Conductor and Sub-Conductor - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.comerford/ORDNANCE/46a.htm

Have you checked for any WW1 medals, either on Ancestry ot the National Archive's website? Another way to identify officers is that they did not have numbers until the 1930s.

The AOC became the RAOC at the end of WW1. Also junior officers would have called a Warrant Officer 'Mr' if not 'Sir'.

Ken

[annaS]

Dear Ken,

Thank you for replying to my question.  However I should have said earlier that my G uncle was born in 1870 and joined the AOC in 1888 and was discharged with a pension in 1913, it would seem that he applied to  help the WW1 war effort, but I cannot see that he did.  I found all this informtion on Ancestry.  He died in 1955 still receiving his army pension.

It is my  belief that he upped his 'conductor' to 'captain', but of course I may be doing him a disservice. 

I have read the piece about conductors and semi conductors, which it would seem that Thomas was in the service when all this changed.

On his discharge papers it reads "after 25 years qualifying service for pension and 10 years and 160 days service as a Warrant Officer, with a view to pension under the E.W"  Does this tell us anything?   What does E.W. stand for? I am all at sea where army ranks are concerned.

With thanks, Anna

[annaS]

Deat Ken

Sorry, but I meant to say that the funeral that he attended was in 1927.  So quite a long time ago.  So between 1913 and 1927 his rank was 'upped'.

Anna

[annaS]

I have just been reading through what I have for Thomas P... and when he he left the A.O.C. in 1913 he  had a Regimental number and rank 54..  ,  and was employed as a 'clerk'.   So if what you say officers didn't get numbers until 1930 this almost certainly tells us that he wasn't a captain. 

He requested that he would be available for re-enlistment during 1914, and on the  bottom of his letter was written "Wrote to accept - to be promoted 'conductor' on final approval'.  This doesn't equate with captain does it?

As the funeral took pace in 1927 - when he styled himself as 'captain' WW2 doesn't really come into it.  I don't know of anything like that during WW1; but I may be wrong.

Anna

[genechaser]

The first known mention of Conductors is in the 1327 Statute of Westminster, when they are mentioned as the men whose job it was to conduct soldiers to places of assembly. The Conductor of Ordnance is mentioned in the records of the siege of Boulogne in 1544 and Conductors are mentioned several times in surviving records from the 17th century. In 1776 they are described in Thomas Simes's book The Military Guide for Young Officers as assistants to the Commissary of Stores. The Land Transport Corps and the Military Stores Department of the 19th century both included Conductors in their strength.

On 11 January 1879, a Royal Warrant established Conductors of Supplies (in the Army Service Corps) and Conductors of Stores (in the Ordnance Store Branch) as Warrant Officers, ranking above all non-commissioned officers. In 1892, Conductors of Supplies were renamed Staff Sergeant Majors 1st Class, but Conductors of Stores remained in what in 1896 became the Army Ordnance Corps. Staff Sergeant Majors in the new corps were renamed Sub-Conductors. In February 1915, with the general introduction of warrant officers throughout the army, Conductors and Sub Conductors became Warrant Officers Class I. Sub-Conductors reverted to the appointment of Staff Sergeant Major in 1967, but the appointment of Conductor passed to the new Royal Logistic Corps in 1993.

[annaS]

Thank you so much genechaser.

I have had a peruse of the London Gazette of 25 January 1918 and I do believe that I might have found him:

"Temp. Asst. Commy. of Ord. and Hon.
Lt. T. Pennicott, A.O.D., to be Hon. Capt.
3rd Jan. 1918."

Do you think that this his him?    I don't know about the top line, but his name was Thomas Pennicott, and all that had gone before; him being in the A.O.C. before WW1 as a clerk - I'm looking at the A.O.D. being something similar. but I'm not too sure about the Lt. bit.

I understand T"emporary Assistant" but what does the rest of the first line mean?  Sorry to be so dense, but the army jargon is baffling.

 Anna

[km1971]

It stands for Assistant Commissary of Ordnance. He was one of six temporary ones created on that day with the rank of Lieutenant. Three years later, 3rd January 1918, they were created Hon. Captains. There is no medal card for him, so he did not go overseas in WW1. If he was discharged as an 'Other Rank' in 1913 so you will have to check Findmypast in the summer when they put surviving records online for men discharged 1900-1913.

Ken

[annaS]

Thank you very much Ken and also genechaser.  I'm certain now that we have the right man, and he indeed was a 'captain' at the end of WW1.

 I have done him a grossly disservice in doubting that he called himself 'captain'.

I will indeed look at 'findmypast' later in the year when the the surviving records go on line.

Once again thank you to both of you for your interest, and I do believe that I have finally 'got my man'!

Regards, Anna