Help needed to find the correct John Innes

[bohogal]

Hi all

I wonder if anyone can help? I am looking for John Innes, father of an Alexander Innes born in Botriphnie in 1896. Mother's name Isabella Stevenson. The couple did not marry, Isabella goes on to marry a Forsyth a few years later.

If I make a couple of assumptions i.e. John was around Isabella's age and came from the locality I come up with one match from Scotlandspeople. If I broaden the search I come up with hundreds!

Is there any way one can view original records say for example a baptism cert or a marriage cert to match signatures (the GRO ones all seem to be transcriptions) online? I am overseas.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be very grateful

Many thanks

[flst]

Welcome to rootschat! Have you downloaded Alexander's birth certificate from scotlandspeople? Sometimes a R.C.E.(record of amended entry) is attached at a later date showing details of an illegitmate child's father. If Alexander married in Scotland, what does the marriage certificate state as his father's occupation, and is he alive or dead? Hopefully John had an uncommon occupation & can be found in the censuses! The marriage certificate will also show the signatures of witnesses. With any luck they'll be relatives! By the way, I too have an illegitimate ancestor, from Botriphnie, whose father was an ag.lab..It's frustrating when there's so many likely candidates!
flst 

[bohogal]

Thank you for the welcome and your response! I went back into scotlandspeople to see if there was an R.C.E document that I had missed. Alas no. On Alexander's birthcert it says that his father John Innes is a shepherd. Plenty of those in Banffshire I'd imagine! He was present at the birth as both he and Isabella are listed as informants. A James Innes is entered as the registrar - possibly a relation, possibly not.

On Alexander's marriage certificate his father John Innes is again a shepherd.

I thought that if I could see the original baptism certificate (assuming John was present) for Alexander Innes and compare it to the marriage certificate for the John Innes I think it is, I might be able to know one way or the other whether I'd found the right John or not!

I'm a bit stumped!

[Forfarian]

I assume that the birth certificate is am image from Scotland's People and that it shows John Innes' name, occupation and address, but that his name has been copied out by the registrar?

(An illegitimate birth can only be registered in the father's name if the father actually accompanies the mother to the registrar's office when she goes to register the birth, and he also signs the certificate at the time. In this situation there will not be an entry in the R(egister) of C(orrected) E(ntries) because there is no need for a correction to add the father's name. )

The GROS images at Scotland's People are scanned from the books held in Edinburgh. The duplicate book in the keeping of the Registrar at Banff may contain the original certificate with John Innes' actual signature. To see this you would have to get someone to go on your behalf to the Registrar in Banff and compare the two relevant certificates for you. This is fraught with snags. First, you need someone who can go there. Second, they will have to pay ten pounds an hour for access to the books. Third, I am not sure that photocopying of the books is possible, and I am fairly certain that photographing them is not permitted.

If it had been a few decades earlier, it might be worth getting someone to go to the National Archives of Scotland to see if the Kirk Session minutes might contain a reference to the matter. But 1896 is probably a bit too late, though it's not impossible. However it is unlikely to tell you anything more than where he was living at the time, and that should be on the birth certificate.

In your position I think I'd try the 1901 census, and see if there is a John Innes who was a shepherd. Or have a look at the marriage certificate of your prime suspect. If he is shown on that as a shepherd, I'd say he is almost sure to be your Alexander's father. You may even find that he is still at the same address as when he signed the certificate.

[bohogal]

My apologies for my tardiness in replying to you.

Yes both the birthcert and the (presumed) marriage certs are from the GRO. Having scrutinised both further it is possible that it is his signature on the birthcert, the marriage I'm not so sure.

The birthcert doesn't actually specify where he is from so is it too much of a leap to assume he is from the area? I will happily send you the two certs to look at if you think it might help.

He is a shepherd on the birthcert and a farm servant on the marriage cert.

There are a couple of possibles on the census (again making the assumption that he is around Isabella's age and also that he was in the area at the time of the census). I haven't ruled out my original suspect yet!

Many thanks for your contributions

[Forfarian]

My apologies for my tardiness in replying to you.

I've been away from home anyway, so I have only just caught up with this.

The birthcert doesn't actually specify where he is from so is it too much of a leap to assume he is from the area?

That's a bit unusual. I think it's likely he was from the area, because he obviously hung around for at least the time from conception to registration.

I will happily send you the two certs to look at if you think it might help.

I'm happy to look at them, but not sure what else one might be able to deduce from them.

He is a shepherd on the birthcert and a farm servant on the marriage cert.

Hmmmm. I suppose a shepherd is a farm servant, but it's a specialised job, so I'd expect him still to be listed as shepherd unless he has actually given up tending to the sheep and taken up general farm work.

There are a couple of possibles on the census (again making the assumption that he is around Isabella's age and also that he was in the area at the time of the census). I haven't ruled out my original suspect yet!

I'm sure that's the best avenue for investigation.

[Stuart P]

bohogal, you were asking about post 1855 baptismal records. These are not on-line anywhere, but the National Archives of Scotland (http://www.nas.gov.uk/) has most of them. Check out their catalogue to see if they have Botriphnie, then its a question of finding someone in Edinburgh to go in and have a look. A baptismal record might give more of a clue as to the father's identity, but might not. Scottish baptisms were typically within a couple of weeks of the birth.

[kirkmichael]

Unless a Sheriff's Warrant for a marriage by declaration was involved the entry in the Register Book of Marriages does not show the original signatures of the couple.

Instead, the signatures shown are as transcribed by the registrar from the marriage schedule, the document given to the couple before the marriage.  This completed schedule was returned to the registrar, traditionally a duty of the best man, and the registrar copied the info into an entry in the Register Book of Marriages (both books, as there were two, identical copies).

The image on line is that from the register book sent to Edinburgh at the start of the following year.  The register book retained by the registrar should be identical.  Be aware that many registrars have been unable to keep these duplicate register books due to space limitations, etc.

These schedules still exist.  It used to be the case that a polite email to GROS would produce a copy but GROS stopped doing this several years ago, unless there are exceptional circumstances.


BTW, when a birth was illegitimate, the father's name could only be shown if he turned up and was also present at the registration.  Whether or not he was present at the birth was not normally recorded.

kirkmichael