Susan Thatcher- help with birth

[emeltom]

I have found a marriage on the National Library of Wales site between a John Phenix and a Susan Thatcher, which took place in Llanbeblig, Caernarvon in December 1825. Their first child Charles was born there in 1828.

I am trying to find the birth/baptism of Susan Thatcher to find out who her parents were. The age given on her Death certificate puts her birth year as 1805 but the IGI for Llanbeblig only starts at 1812. Does anyone have access to the Parish Registers and could do a look up for me?

Thanks in advance,

Emeltom

[hiraeth]

Hello Emeltom

According to the transcription of Llanbeblig marriages from the Gwynedd FHS, Susan Thatcher is listed as a widow at the time of her marriage to John Phenix Dec 5, 1825.   

There is a burial at Llanbeblig of a Joseph Thatcher age 29 on Sep 12, 1823 on the excellent Carnarvon Traders site. 

There is also a Llanbebelig marriage recorded April 3, 1821 between a Joseph Thatcher and Susannah Jones, both listed as Single and both of Llanbeblig.   

HTH
Heather

[emeltom]

Hello Heather,

Many thanks for the information. I had seen Joseph's marriage and death and wondered if he was Susan's brother. Never thought he was her first husband.

This, however, just makes things more difficult as I am now looking for the birth of a Susan Jones in Wales! As both her marriages took place on Llanbeblig I am presuming that she was born there but with IGI coverage only starting in 1813 I'm stuck.

Thanks again,

Margaret

[hiraeth]

Hi Margaret

The microfilmed parish registers for Llanbeblig 1699-1887 are held at Caernarfon Record Office (ref XPE25 per Genuki).     I'm not entirely sure but possibly the microfilm would be available from an LDS family search location?    Unfortunately there is no guarantee that your Susannah was baptized in the parish church as she may have been baptized non-conformist.   Do you know if her children were baptized church or chapel?

Heather     

[emeltom]

Hi Heather,

The only baptism I can find is for their son Charles in 1827 and it just says Llanbeblig, doesn't specify church or chapel. I have looked at the Nonconformist BMDs but can't find a Phenix/Phoenix baptism.

I checked the entry for the family on the 1851 Census which is the only one that Susan appears on which gives her place of birth and according to that she was born Ludlow, Shropshire. The parish registers for Ludlow are on line and I've checked but the only Susanna Jones who might have fitted was baptised 1809 and died 1811.  There are two entries in 1795 but that is about ten years out so I have discounted those as well. It looks as though this is as far as I can go with Susan.

Husband John Phenix is being just as elusive. he was born circa 1804 and gives his birthplace in 1851 as Wrexham and in 1861 as Llanedilan. I've looked at the list of Clwyd names but can't see him under either place. I guess this is the end of the line for the moment.

Thanks for your help,
Margaret

[hiraeth]

Hi Margaret

Don't give up yet!

I found these baptisms at Llanelidan

Martha PHENIX July 6, 1810  d/o James & Hannah abode Nantclwyd Isa (buried Apr 20, 1811)
Charles PHOENIX Dec 21, 1808 s/o James & Hannah abode Nantclwyd Isaf
Hannah  PHONIX Apr 4, 1806 d/o James & Hannah (no abode) 

There is also this baptism recorded at Minera Chapel
Mary PHENIX Aug 17, 1800 (born 12)  d/o James (inkeper) and Hannah formerly BOWEN abode Minera

In 1861 your John Phoenix's place of birth on the actual census image looks like it is a mangled version of Llanelidan Nantclwyd Isa.   

I've checked Wrexham baptisms c1803 without a result.  Food for thought for you on the Llanelidan front anyway

ATB
Heather

There are other threads from people researching PHENIX/FENIX/FENIGS/PHOENIX in Denbighshire.  If you use the search function accessed from the header bar there may be more clues available.

[emeltom]

Many thanks for that info Heather. I had seen the entries for the three children of James and Hannah and did wonder when I saw the name Charles, because John and Susan's first born was called Charles as well.

I now have Susan's death cert. The death was registered by her daughter Eliza and whereas the Censuses give a date of birth as 1805 the death cert places her date of birth as 1796. This would fit in with the two entries I have found in the Ludlow Parish Registers, one for a Susan Jones daughter of Thomas and Mary and one for a Susanna Jones daughter of John and Susanna. Both girls were born 1795.

Now I just have to decide which one it is. Do the two marriages you found for Susanna/Susan give names of witnesses as it might be possible to pin it down with a sibling named as a witness, if you see what I mean. In the mean time I'll just keep searching. Thanks again for your help and encouragement.

Margaret

[hiraeth]

Hi Margaret

Sorry but the Llanbeblig Marriage transcriptions don't include names of witnesses.  You would need to order copies of the Marriage Register entries from the Caernarfon Record Office.  http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_doc.asp?doc=12971&Language=1.   If you provide them with names and dates etc it probably wouldn't cost much more than a regular certificate if that.   

In the meantime I'm wondering how both John & Susannah ended up in Llanbeblig all the way from Shropshire.  An ideas on that front?    I wondered if perhaps they were both in service to a family with estates in Shropshire and Caernarvonshire?   

Heather

[emeltom]

Hi Heather,

What a pity your info doesn't have the witnesses. I have just looked at the link you gave me and I can't afford £15 a copy at the moment. I'll have to wait until I can visit the Record Office.

I think your idea that they must have been in service could be correct. John's profession on his death certificate is given as Gentleman's Coachman although it is different on every Census ranging from Shopman (1841) Ag Lab (1851) and Gardener (1861) Susan's Death cert has him down as a Carter.

I'm not really sure how someone got a job in service in those days, was it a formal application to an advert, via an agency or by word of mouth. Definitely no explanation as to how John , born in the Wrexham area and Susan, born Ludlow, ended up marrying in Llanbeblig. I do wish there was more info on line!

Margaret