My Brickwall

[meggles]

My Brick Wall
Thomas Harris - Bap October 1794 at Denbury, Devon - Charles and Thomas, twins of John (Harris) and Mary of Torbrian, Devon.
Thomas Harris married Maria Kiddle (born in Denbury)  in Denbury in 1820
They had 3 sons Bap in Denbury, Devon
John Harris - Bap 1821 - (thomas Occupation was Master Mariner)
Twin Boys - Francis and charles - Bap 1826. (Thomas Occupation was Mariner)
I can not see this family in the 1841 Census
In the 1851 Census - Thomas and Maria are living at Torquey, Devon - Thomas is a Mariner and birth place was Torbrian (although census  Index have the name as Marris not harris - but clearly Harris on the census)
In the 1861 Census - Thomas is living in Torquey  (born in Torbrian - although the indexes to the census state Jersey Islands - but when you look at the census  it is quite clearly Torbrian- he is a mariner but is now living with another wife - Sarah born 1816 Kingston, Devon (in the 1851 census she is single and a servent working for a boat builder in Shalden, Devon - Birth place was Kingsteinton)
They have the following children
Thomas Born 1852 - I can not find a birth for this Thomas (Born Torquey)
Sibella Born 1853 (I have her Birth Cert.  - Her father thomas Harris was put down as a Labourer and mother was Sarah Harris Formerly Ridgway) (Born Torquey)
George Henry Born born 1856 (I have his Birth Cert - His father Thomas Harris was put down as a Master mariner and mother was Sarah Harris Formerly Ridgeway) (Born Torquey)
William John  Born 1860  (I have his Birth Cert - His father Thomas was put down as a Mariner and mother was Sarah Harris Formerly Ridgway) (Born Torquey)
Thomas Harris (senior) died in 1867 in Torquey - I have his death Cert.

What I can't find -
1841 census with Thomas and Maria (or any of their children)
The death of Maria Harris after 1851
The marriage of Thomas Harris and Sarah Ridgway
the Birth of Thomas Harris (born in 1852ish - he does not appear in any other census)

Any help in the right direction would be fantastic -

Cheers Meggles

[krisesjoint]

Hi meggles,

I wonder if perhaps Maria may not have died and there may not have quickly been a second marriage between 1851 census and 1852 birth of son. 1 year does not seem long for death remarriage and a birth to have happened.

RIDGEWAY Tom Harris born Jun 1/4 1852 Newton A 5b 152

Cheers Kris 

[meggles]

Hi Kris
thank you so much for that - I did consider that Thomas Harris could of been born as a ridgeway - but I did a search for Thomas and nothing come up - Tom Harris Ridgeway makes so much sense.
I had also thought that maybe Maria did not die at that time and have found a ref that matches her age in the BMD- so I am off to order those two certs now.
Cheers
Meggles

[jopha1824]

Do you know what happened to Thomas' twin brother Charles?  Do you know Charles' wife's name?  If Thomas was a Master Mariner, do you know what ports he travelled to?   I may have some information for you.

[terryleaman]

Sorry only just seen your enquiry- the place is TorquAy- the parish is Tormoham, and from my database:-

born:-   -- February 1857   , baptised:-   01 March 1861      George Henry   HARRIS   ,   child of:-   Thomas & Sarah   of:-   Tor   , Fathers occupation:-   sailor   , notes:-      , Where:-   Tormoham
                                       
born:-   09 June 1853   , baptised:-   07 June 1861      Sabbella   HARRIS   ,   child of:-   Thomas & Sarah   of:-   Masons Row, Torquay   , Fathers occupation:-   mariner   , notes:-      , Where:-   Tormoham
                                       
born:-   20 April 1852   , baptised:-   07 June 1861      Thomas   HARRIS   ,   child of:-   Thomas & Sarah   of:-   Masons Row, Torquay   , Fathers occupation:-   mariner   , notes:-      , Where:-   Tormoham
                                       
born:-   09 October 1860   , baptised:-   01 March 1861      William John   HARRIS   ,   child of:-   Thomas & Sarah   of:-   Tor   , Fathers occupation:-   sailor   , notes:-      , Where:-   Tormoham                                       

As you can see Thomas although born in 1852 was not baptised until 1861

[meggles]

 

Do you know what happened to Thomas' twin brother Charles? Do you know Charles' wife's name? If Thomas was a Master Mariner, do you know what ports he travelled to? I may have some information for you.

Hi jopha
No I don't know what happened to Charles, I last have him as a witness to his brothers wedding in 1828.
We have been searching for him for a very long time - we suspect he might have gone to Nova Scotia.  We also have no info on who he married.

We also don't know where Thomas travelled to - we would love any information that you could provide.

Terry - thank you so much for your info - I had tracked down the births, but not the dates that they were baptised.

The death of the first wife is still a mystery - Maria, I have oredered quite a few death certifiates -b ut no match so far. 
I also dont have a marriage fro Thomas and his second wife Sarah Ridgeway - begining to suspect that they never married.
Thank you both for your help
cheers
Megan

[jopha1824]

Hi Megan, I am researching my Harris family in Newfoundland. Newfoundland has a long history with English mariners, but is lacking in Church records.  You see, St. John's burned down several times and people often used different churches for baptisms.  All Methodist records were lost in a fire in 1892 as were most cemetery records.  If you have the misfortune of coming from there, you have to get creative in looking up your relatives.  I have been able to go back in my family to about 1824, but I don't know who the next generation back is.  I have written down every name I can find of Harrises in St. John's at that time and I'm researching each one.  My 1824 ancestor was Charles.  Looking up all the info on Charles Harris, I came across some information of a Charles, son of John and Mary, who had a twin brother Thomas, born 1794.  There was a Master Mariner Charles making trips from England to Newfoundland during the early 1800's with the records ending in 1838. No proof that the sons of John and Mary are the ones in St. John's. Just last week I found something in the Newfoundland Court Records requesting probate on an Intestate named Charles Harris.    This is on LDS Film 2109163 of a record dated 1839. "The peitition of Thomas Harris of St. John's that Charles Harris late of St. John's, Master Mariner, was lost at sea on a voyage from St. John's to Bristol in the Schooner Sarah.  That this said Charles Harris died intestate and left his savings, a wife Mary Ann Harris now residing in Denbury in Devon, but no children, and that the only relative of the said intestate in this Island is your petitioner, his brother.  That this said intestate at the time of his death was entitled to certain credits from a settlement of amounts between him and David Foster of St. John's, Merchant, of this Island of one hundred pounds to the best of the petitioner's information.  In order therefore to effect a settlement of the estate of the intestate aforesaid.  your petitioner prays that your Lordship may be pleased to grant letters of probate of their rights, credits and effects ?(faint writing)  The above named Thomas Harris has made oath and faith that all and singular the matters as set forth in the foregoing petition are just and true to the best of his knowledge and information and belief 13 day of December 1839."

There is also a birth in Newfoundland records of Joseph Frederick Harris baptised 31 May 1835 in St. John's to Thomas and Maria Harris.

Two small clues that may give you some background on where Thomas and Charles were during those years.  I am waiting on a package from St. John's with more information of many of the early inhabitants of St. John's.  Hopefully, there will be more on this Thomas in this package.  There were no census records during the 1800's that survived, but there were shipping records,  I cannot promise that this is  YOUR family, but if no other clues turn up, this is at least a starting point for you.  I DO have shipping record information on Charles already and I'll be glad to send it along to you. 

All the best, Joan

[meggles]

Hi Joan - thank you so much for that info -
We have been seaching for charles death now for 10 years.
Both Charles and Thomas were Master Mariners, and they also had 2 other brothers who were seaman.
Edward harris died at sea sometime between 1835 and 1841 - the only reason I found that he died at sea was I found his wife's headstone - which told me that he had - I had been searching for him as well for some time.
The other brother James who was a seaman - I can't find after 1851, I am thinking that the chances are that he also died at sea.
I now wonder if Edward was on the same ship as charles (the sarah) ?? (brain now working overtime)
I have found the marriage for Charles Harris and Mary Ann Brickley in Denbury Feb 1819
I also found Maria (wife of Thomas) in the 1841 census with her son Joseph and another son George. 
Also there is a Mary Ann Harris living in Denbury in 1841 census - the right age to be charles wife
Time to order my cert. to check all of this - hopefully something on one of them will prove that this is the correct Charles and Thomas - but I have a very good feeling.
Thank you so much and I look forward to any info that you find on these 2 boys.
Kind Regards
Megan

[jopha1824]

Megan, I'm sure these are the right boys.  As I said, these things I'm sending are from the shipping records compiled by the geography professors at the university in St. John's, Nfld.  I'm giving you Charles' records here and I hope to have your Thomas' records within the next week.  I think I've asked for James too, but if not, we'll try to get it.  I do have a 'George' who also sailed on the 'Mary', there aren't any more brothers, are there?  George quit sailing in 1819 (probably got married then)  My story is that there were 3 brothers who went down on a ship and these brothers were in my family.  The brother I'm hoping is my relative is George.  Anyway these records are in shorthand but give where they started from or ended, the ship name, dates, owners, cargo etc.  We already know what happened to Charles, so here's his records.....

Charles Harris- was born about 1794 in Torbrian, Devon, England. He died in 1839.
Shipping Records"
October 1794 at Denbury, Devon - Charles and Thomas, twins of John and Mary of Torbrian, Devon.
May 7- April 18, 1817, Bt. 98/13 Charles age 21 at Brixton, Devon on 'Ebenezer' Wm. Field, discharged Liverpool.
25 Mar - 17 Nov 1820, 98/13 - Charles age 20 from Denbury on '2 Bros.' of Torquay mat Tinkem - Labrador ex Gleanor, Waymouth.
1821 5 April - 13 June bt. 98/14 Charles age 28 Denbury on 'Lovely Sally' of Torquay. John Walters discharged Nfld.
1822 - 7 April-17 Nov. 98/14 Chas. age 27 Torbrian/Denbury on 'Lovely Sally' of Torquay. John Walters (ex. Nfld) Nfld. ship
1825 - June, Lloyd listnews - 'Fancy' Nfld from Dartsmouth.
1826 - 16 May, Lloyds 'Fancy' to Nfld. from Dartmouth.
1827 - 14 Nov. Ledger - 'Mary' St. John's Teignmouth 366 qtl. 130 qtl. core
1830 - 14 Apr - Lloyds 'Rover' Nfld from Dartmouth
1830 - Apr - watergd Chas 'Rover' St. John's from Teignmouth. leather, beer, cider, potatoes, bricks, cordage
1830 - exon reg. Chas. 'Rover' 58 ton owner Michael Rowell w/t dis. end 1832
1830 - Oct. Gazette, 'Rover' St. John's - Teignmouth 550 Qtl/ misc.
1830 - Nov. Lloyds 'Rover' Teignmouth from Nfld.
1832 - 24 Deec. Ledger 'Lady of the Lake' St. John's from Lisbon - 60 ton salt.
1833 - 10 June Ledger 'Lady of the Lake' St. John's to Liverpool
1833 - May Ledger 'Lady of the Lake' Capt. Charles for Liverpool - see Robt Alsop
1833 - Lloyds 'Mary' schooner 58/8 owner Robt Alsop cork-penz
1834 - 8 Apr. Ledger 'Lady of the Lake' St. John's from Liverpool 17 Apr. 1550 qtl to Oporto
1834 - 4 Jul 'Lady of the Lake' to St. John's from Figuera
1834 - Dec, Nflder 'Lady of the Lake 1650 qtl St. John's to Oporto
1836 - Bristol ships. Chas of St. John's with Sam Hutchings buys 'Chas' from CF Bennett
1838 - 15 Mar. Nflder. 'Sarah' 85/30 sealing for Dan Fowler
1838 - Nov. 'Sarah' St. John's to Bristol oil.
 
Charles Harris married Mary Ann. They had no children.

Remember, there may be more than one Charles referenced here.  You could start with his birth date and pick out the entries that match his age, but I would think most of these entries are for your Charles, especially the last entries.  He was actually living in St. John's then with Mary Ann.

When Thomas' records come, they'll show the same way. It gives you a picture of where they went and what ships they were on in the years they were away from England.
Joan