Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hmmmm....

I can't pretend to comprehend all this, but it's sounding very interesting.  I'll spend some more time going over it.

Your research keeps digging up men of title.  From the wedding record we know that James and his father John were "gentlemen". The fact that they were of high social standing reminds me of the report my hired researcher issued a year or so ago. 

He was perplexed that he could not find mention of James and Jessie's marriage in the Dublin Newspapers (specifically the Freeman's Journal, where he says the wedding announcement would be most likely).  He mentions that an extensive examination of other papers was conducted, with no results.  To him this was "not in keeping with JF Burke's status as a gentleman."  The searches were made for the period between April 18th and May 7th (The wedding was on the 20th).  Maybe the search should be for an earlier date.  Might it be that they had planned to marry earlier, but something came up, and they married a week or two later, after the date mentioned in the announcements?

Anyway, Roger, how about I send you the report in a PM?  I think I'll see if I can do that.

Thanks for your continuing pursuits.

Regards,

Joe

 

 

[despair]

I can understand your lack of comprehension as I am trying to draw together disparate records featuring the prominent names.
It would be interesting to get a view on how a local pronunciation of Clondagauv would sound to a foreign ear.If nobody picks up on this thread it might be worth posting a query on the Galway board.
I have found a further record for Edward Burke,"formerly of Cloncoe,farmer" who is bankrupt in 1851.If he is the witness and possibly somehow related,it seems to fit a picture of the family/estate crumbling and James looking to the "New World".
What I am really struggling with is trying to decide which side of the family "Lady Anne" might relate to.
Thanks for your PM report.I don't think it really adds anything significant,unfortunately.
It does contain an obvious conclusion,which I have alluded to,which I know is not in your gift-finding an artist name or other evidence on the painting.

Regards
Roger

[dathai]

I do not know if this will assist you but the ''Index of prerogative wills by Sir Arthur Vicars'' lists a John Burke of Ower 1792 and William Burke of Ower 1804 plus several other Burkes for Ireland general.
I found putting names into the search box top right hand side of page gives negative results but if you click on the small page top left hand side you can flick through the pages alphabetically.

[despair]

Thanks for the Burke of Ower reference.I have considered that family but,at the moment,I still favour the following:

The de Burgh(Clanricarde) family of Portumna,Galway were the owners of Clondegoff Castle.The local pronunciation does not help the argument,but in the Anglicised version as presented,with advice that exists that an internal d might be pronounced as a t-it is interesting to pronounce Clontegoff quickly.

John de Burgh founded the Connaught Rangers of which the Galway Militia became a part(4th Battalion).He married Elizabeth the daughter of Sir Thomas Burke Baronet of Marble Hill,Galway.

To come forward a generation,Ulick John de Burgh(Ulick meaning "son of earl" or similar),son of John was appointed Lord Lieutenant of Galway in the 1830s..Sir John Burke,son of Thomas became vice Lord Lieutenant.Between them they would have had responsibility for the Galway Militia.The Captain John Sutherland I identified lived at Ballinasloe,approx 20 to 30 miles from both Portumna and Marble Hill(near Loughrea).The de Burghs and Burkes must have known that John Sutherland.

Sir John Burke of Marble Hill also appears to be a tenant of Clondegoff castle which is effectively where a James Burke Esq. is listed in the 1840s.His estate that gets into trouble after his death in 1847,and the house eventually becomes a ruin.

While I can't find a reference to James Burke as a son of either of the de Burgh or Burke families it would be easy to speculate that he might be an unrecorded(or illegitimate) child of one or the other.I favour him being a son of Sir John Burke,"living away" at Clondegoff.This scenario might also provide the  reason why there doesn't appear to be a marriage announcement in any press of the time.

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Roger:

Very interesting, the possible acquaintance you suggest, of John Sutherland of Balinasloe with the deBurghs and Burkes.

I am trying to understand this last post of yours so bear with me. 

In your statement...:

Sir John Burke of Marble Hill also appears to be a tenant of Clondegoff castle which is effectively where a James Burke Esq. is listed in the 1840s. His estate that gets into trouble after his death in 1847,and the house eventually becomes a ruin.

...I'd like clarity on the following:

By His above, you mean Sir John Burke of Marble Hill, correct?

And by "tenant of Clondegoff castle", "tenant" doesn't mean living in the castle, correct?   "Tenant" means renting some abode on the estate of Clondegoff castle, correct?

And when you mention James Burke Esq. as "listed in the 1840's" at the castle, would he be listed even though he was just a young boy (JFB was b. Dublin 1830).

In imagining my ancestor James Francis Burke as an illegitimate son of Sir John of M.H.,  are you suggesting, with the phrase "living away in Clongdengoff", that Sir John was supporting his son JFB, and keeping him out of sight of Sir John's family, by putting JFB up on some far away property? 

And your concluding sentence:  by "This scenario", do you mean JFB's illegitimacy?  So in this sentence you are suggesting that the wedding of an illegitimate son would not be acknowledged by his (or the bride's) family with the normally traditional publishing of a wedding announcement?

Would Sir John Burke's illegitimate child still be considered a "gentleman", as shown in the marriage record?       

Oh, and if Sir John is only a tenant on the Clongdengoff Castle estate and he dies in 1847 and his estate gets into trouble, why would that cause the house to go into ruin?  Isn't the house's state of repair the responsibility of the owners of the Clontarf castle estate (the Vernons, right?)?

No judgments on any of this (I've got illegitimacy on my dad's side too!).  Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Regards,

Joe

[despair]

In preparing links to answer your questions I came across the following which perhaps suggests a more likely lineage for the James Burke at Clondagoff.Firstly the general lineage up to and including James Carrol Burke who marries Bidelia Dowling in 1829.

http://www.archive.org/stream/familyrecords01burk#page/n265/mode/2up

Secondly a reference that links Bidelia to Burkes Court in the 1840s-the address of James

http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=1321

Given her husbands first name being James(who dies in 1836),it seems likely that he is the father.

The castle appears to have been associated with this branch of the Burkes for some time and Sir John Burke is probably the landlord,though the property is probably on the Clanricarde Estate of the De Burghs.

There are some records of a John Anthony Burke Esq of Clondagoff(died 1863?),most likely associated with the Burkes of Meelick House and Tintrim.I'll see if I can find anything more on his family.There is an Anthony Burke(b 1755) in the lineage of the Burkes from the castle.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

As far as I can tell John Anthony Burke is not relevant.If I have not mentioned it before,however, there is an article from 1849 telling of Edward Burke Esq of Marble Hill finding a body at Portrumna Castle(home of the De Burghs and relatively close to Clondegoff Castle).He is an obvious candid ate for the witness,but I can't find him in any lineage at the moment.

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Roger:

Watching, reading, trying to comprehend, with great interest and appreciation.

Regards,

Joe

[despair]

I've been trying to find out more about the James Burke Esq close to Clondegoff Castle in the O'Donovan Field Names of the 1840s in the hope that he would be the one being sought.He may be synonymous with James Ulick Burke,of a broadly similar address in the same series,which would obviously rule him out from being James Francis Burke.

Regards
Roger