1841 look up please.

[DAVID WALTERS]

Can anyone find Philip Harvard born in Llandeallfe, Brecon abt. 1822 in 1841? or to his birth.

By 1851 he was married to Ann Havard (Sanders) 1824 Talgarth, Brecon. with two children:
Mary Ann Havard 19 November 1845.
Thomas Havard 1849.

Plus there are twins:
William Deyson 1841.
Ann Deyson 1841.
Ann's first marriage?

Love to trace my great, great grandfather in 1841 to his birth. Plus these two weddings. Anyone help please?

[CaroleW]

I think you will find that the twins do not "belong" to Philip & Ann

As they are living with Ann's parents - the twins are their grandchildren so presumably the children of one of Ann's sisters who married a Deyson/Dyson

Have you checked freebmd or the IGI for a Sanders/Deyson marriage

Do you have a copy of Philip & Ann's marriage cert showing his fathers name as there is a Philip & Elizabeth Havard in Brecon in 1841 who could be his parents

[CaroleW]

1841 - indexed as Howard b 1826 - see image - working as an agric lab but away from his parents

HO107 Piece 1370 Book 9  Folio 4 Page 2

[DAVID WALTERS]

I had Mary Ann Havard (my great grandmother) birth certificate today. Born 19th November 1845, Father Philip Havard Labourer, mother Ann Havard (Sanders) born in Talgarth.

Which confirmed my own findings. But before 1851 I cannot find them. I did find a marriage for:
Philip Havard July-Aug-Sept 1845 at Hay, Brecknoch 26/459.
Ann Sanders Apr-May-Jun 1842 at Chrickhowell, Brecknoch 26/489.
So the marriages are there somewhere but I have not found a matching pair yet.

The census return of 1851 says the twins parents are Philip and Ann Havard. So I took it for granted that Ann had married before.

[CaroleW]

The census return of 1851 says the twins parents are Philip and Ann Havard

No it doesn't - it says they are grandchildren which is their relationship to the head of the household (ie)  William Sanders

If you check the image - they are "dittoed" under Mary Ann Havards entry which shows granddaughter

I did find a marriage for Philip Havard July-Aug-Sept 1845 at Hay, Brecknoch 

If you click on the page number - you will see Anne SAUNDERS on the same page
www.freebmd.org.uk

[DAVID WALTERS]

Sorry over the misunderstanding of the children. I often just read the typed script, I should know better then to jump to conclusions. I will have to blame my 61 year old brain.

I mainly use Ancestry search engine for census reports, (to be honest they do all the work for me) and build up my family history around the findings, and send for any certificates that would help me most. In Philip Havard's case I only had their daughter Mary Ann Havard birth certificate yesterday, so only just starting to find out about Philip and Ann Havard. And the 1851 census giving Ann's maiden name of Sanders was a great help for it ties in with the birth certificate.

I don't have their marriage certificate yet, for I have not found the marriage date. Or Philip before 1851. This is the area of help needed.

I should do more research on how to use other family history engines. For you linked a page that I have never seen before, and sadly I don't know how to use it, or the use of the numbers you shared with me.

Many thanks for your time and help. Rootschat is a great help to us all.

David

[CaroleW]

Hi

I don't have their marriage certificate yet, for I have not found the marriage date. Or Philip before 1851. This is the area of help needed.

See my reply above - I included the details that the 1845 marriage entry on freebmd is the correct one - she is shown as Anne Saunders - not Sanders

I have checked the IGI Beta site but the marriage is not listed.  It often shows the fathers names which can save buying the cert

Using freebmd is simple and your post gave me the impression that you had obtained the 1845 marriage from it as you quoted the quarter:  Here is some guidance which I hope you will find useful


www.freebmd.org.uk
Click on SEARCH
Select which type of search
Input details
Input a year range
Select a county (if known)
Click FIND

You will then see the matches whiuch are shown under the following headings

Surname  First name(s)    District  Vol  Page 

In the case of a marriage -  click on the page number (the last column) to see other entries on the same page

[DAVID WALTERS]

I found the marriage of Philip and Ann.
Philip Havard July-Aug-Sept 1845, Hay, Brecon Vol 26 Page 439.
Anne Saunders July-Aug-Sept 1845, Hay Brecon Vol 26 Page 439.
So looks like they got married just in time for Mary Ann's birth in November 1945.

I also found Ann Sanders age 15 on the 1841 census, living with:
William Sanders age 70 Ag Labourer
Mary Sanders age 60.

Looks like it is coming together. The spelling of Sanders/Saunders is the problem. Thanks for your help and advice.

[CaroleW]

Hi

If the marriage cert shows his father as Philip - have a look at that 1841 entry I mentioned for Philip and Elizabeth Havard in Brecon

It's not a common surname in those parts and coupled with a christian name Philip - it may well be his parents