Looking for John South (Colchester?)

[vabbott]

Hello

Looked on my cD only begins 1831 but I haVe a birth for SAMUEL BORN TO JOhn anD lUCY SOUTH  BPT 18/02/1813 IN holy triinity (FATHER LATE PRIvate royal artillery  any use  Sorry about cap  key Board playing up

Ronnie

[RobinEssex]

Hi Ronnie
I do already have that infomation but thank you for taking the trouble to look it up.

I've always been troubled by that 'late private royal artillery' reference because it contradicts John's royal navy career. Maybe he served both the in royal navy and the royal artillery?

I'm assuming that the 'late' part is a reference that he use to be a private in the royal artillery........and not that he is dead?   

many thanks for replying,

Rob

[Valda]

Hi

ADM 6/247/29 
John South (amongst others) Greenwich out-pensioners applying for admission 1840 July 16 - 1840 August 6

ADM 6/247/33 
John South (amongst others) Greenwich out-pensioners applying for admission into Greenwich Hospital as in-pensioners (after service in the Royal Navy, Royal Marines or the Naval Dockyards) 1840 August 20


Pre this date you would be expect him to be obtaining out relief

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/royal-navy-rating-pension.htm

These records might confirm he came into the hospital in 1840 from Colchester if ADM 73/58 (nominal roll indexed on the Asplin website) doesn't supply this information.


Regards

Valda

[RobinEssex]

Hi Valda

Thanks again for your reply with your info and links.

John South is proving a great frustration for me and i'm now having serious doubts that i actually have the right John South.

If everyone can forgive my indulgence here,i would be delighted to hear from Rootchatters as to whether i have the right man or not.

Here's all the info that I have (in chronological order) on John South:

1801: John South marries Lucy Buckingham in Colchester, Essex.
Both listed as being of the parish (St Mary Magdalen)

1802: daughter Lucy South is born in Colchester.

1803: son John South is born in Colchester.

1816: son Samuel South is baptised in Colchester. Father is listed as being 'late of Royal Artillery'.

(Samuel was aged:
30 in 1841 census,
42 in 1851 b. Colchester
50 in 1861 b. Woolwich, Kent
64 in 1871 b. Colchester
74 in 1881 b. Woolwich. Kent.)

1840: a John South,aged 66, is admitted into Greenwich.
He is listed as being a widower,living in St Pancras, London and who was born in Brentford, Middlesex.

1841: census ~ John South aged 70, in Greenwich Hospital

1841: census ~ John South aged 68,a labourer, lodging in Lexden Heath,Colchester.

1841: census ~ Lucy South aged 66 living in Colchester with her son, John South.

1847: John South dies Q3 1950 in Colchester. (no age given but not the son John South who died in 1847).

1850 (April) ~ John South dies in Greenwich Hospital aged 75 years.

1851: census: Lucy South ( 73) widower, living on parish relief - widow of a sailor.)

1860: Lucy South dies in Colchester aged 86.

I'm intrigued that Lucy was a widow of a sailor in 1851 (even though John was 'late royal artillery' in 1816 at his sons baptism) and that their son, Samuel South, occasionally gave his place of birth as Woolwich in the census returns.

Was Woolwich where the family lived circa 1810 when his father John was in the navy?

And it was Woolwich hospital where John ended his days as an in-pensioner.
The Woolwich connection and the 'widow of a sailor' is surely too much of a coincidence?

And yet, the John South in Woolwich hospital gave his address (in 1840) as St Pancras, that he was a widower, and also that he had no children.

And who was the John South in Lexden Heath in 1841 and who died in 1850 and who was roughly the same age as the other John South?

Was the John South who entered Greenwich hospital being economical with the truth, just to get himself admitted more easily? Saying that he had no family (no dependants) might have gained him more sympathy?

So finally, was my 4x great grandfather an ex-sailor, who fought at the battle of Basque Roads, and who spent the last 10 years as an in-pensioner in Greenwich hospital. Or was he simply a labourer who lived his life in Colchester and that 'Woolwich baptism' & 'widow of a sailor' just red herrings?

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

thank you
Rob

[Valda]

Hi

Greenwich hospital was the navy home for in pensioners in the parish of Greenwich.
Woolwich was the base of the Royal Artillery and the Royal Ordnance in the parish of Woolwich. Both these places are today in the London borough of Greenwich.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arsenal

http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/wool_plc.htm
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/grnw_plc.htm


It is possible the 1851 census entry might read widow of a tailor - the census enumerator was copying from the household schedule into the enumerator's book.


14th March 1810 St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich born 16th March 1809
William South parents John and Lucy

Burial 6th January 1831 Holy Trinity Colchester
William South aged 21


Burial 4th June 1847 St Leonard Lexden
John South aged 71

1841 census HO107 344/9 folio 44
Lexden Heath Essex
John South 68 Lab born in county
Lewis Blaxall 27 Blacksmith J not born in county


Regards

Valda

[RobinEssex]

Hi valda

Many thanks for your infomation and links.

I'm especially pleased to see the link to Woolwich proven by the birth and baptism details of William South.

However, it seems i was getting Woolwich' and 'Greenwich' confused and it does look increasingly likely that the John South in Greenwich hospital isn't my 4x gt grandfather. Unfortunately that means i now have to discount 'Brentford' as a birth place.

Thanks again for all your help.

Rob

[vabbott]

Hi again

looked at the records today John and Lucy were both baptised at the Holy Trinity Church in Colchester
I could not find a birth for John snr. I looked in St Giles and All saints which were some of the parishes that the troops would have used but could not find anything there either 
Will look again next week ....something will turn up
The Buckinghams are a very large family so there should be someone else out there that can help you

Ronnie

[RobinEssex]

Hi Ronnie

Many thanks for taking the trouble to look.

I was actually in the local studies department at the Colchester main library yesterday morning having another search through the baptisms, without much success unfortunately.

I'm sure now that John was serving in the Royal Artillery and was stationed at the Colchester barracks when he met Lucy. This would have been during the Napoleonic wars. John married Lucy in 1801 and then after two of their children were born, Lucy (1802) & John (1803), they went to live in Woolwich,where the RA were based, and where William, Thomas & Samuel  were born. William and Thomas were baptised there but Samuel was baptised  back in Colchester in 1816,aged about 7 years.

I have a new lead though that John South was baptised at St Nicholas church, Southfleet in Kent on 11th May  1777. The date fits and Southfleet isn't too far from Woolwich so i'm hopeful.

The Southfleet 'John South' appears in a Genereunited user's family tree. Having now sent a message, I'm just hoping that they are still subscribing.

Rob

[vabbott]

Hi
Just looked at find my past record....  Says baptised 11th May 1777
parents Ann And Thomas South parish is saint nicholas
Found a marriage 4th Jan 1772 in Swanscombe kent st peter st paul paish
Thomas South married Ann Wilkinson

could be the one

Ronnie