Austin John Payne

[Sherlock.Holmes]

I am trying to track down my great grandfather Austin John Payne, born Mortlake surrey 1881 married Harriet Timson 1902 from Tenterden Kent in Richmond in Surrey. They had four children, Len, Beatrice, Edward and Robert.
Austin John Payne is listed in the 1901 census as living in Barnes Surrey and his job is listed as Groom "domestic"
Austin John Payne does not appear in the 1911 census and I have been unable to locate a death certificate for him. When my grandfather Edward got married in 1931 on the marriage certificate he is listed as deceased. The three sons of him and their sister Beatrice never talked about their father to other family members. My mother says the subject was avoided at all costs.
Can anybody help

[Valda]

Hi

Welcome to Rootschat


You have posted on the Surrey Look Up Offers board.

I will move your post to the Surrey Look Up Requests Board where hopefully it will be seen by Rootschatters and your query answered.


Regards

Valda
co-moderator Surrey

[CFP39]

Hi

Possible explanation?

Harriet Timson born Dec. 1/4 1880
Harriet Payne aged 27 died March 1/4 1907 Camberwell

Age fits!

The children in later life could have blamed their father for her early death! Four children in 4/5 years was excessive, there was more usually 2 years between births on average.

If you can't find him with the children in 1911 he probably moved on without the them.  Second possible reason for resenting him?

Just a couple of thoughts to see if they fit with what you know.

Regards
Lee

[Sherlock.Holmes]

Sorry but my great grandmother was alive till at least the early 1950s as my mother remembers her living in Slough formerly Buckingshire now Berkshire at that time

[CFP39]

So... were the children all born before 1911?   Have you found mother & children together in 1911 CR?
Being a groom, could he have moved away to a new job and/or joined the army?  Have you made a countrywide search in 1911 CR for him?

CWGC site shows an A J Payne in the Royal Garrison Artillery who died 7/10/1918 and was buried in France.  This would be a reason for not finding a death registration for him.  I'm afraid that the entry doesn't give age or family details but you may be able to get more details from his service no. - 190736.

My grandfather was in the regular army and doesn't show in 1901 CR but is with his family in 1911 CR.  So if your answer to my 4th question is 'yes', the army could be the way to go.

Regards
Lee

[Sherlock.Holmes]

Thanks Lee for the info its a big help.
 All the children were born before 1911 but i have so far been unable to locate the family in 1911 census. It could be family were on the move at time of 1911 census. My great grandfather I've found in the 1901 census but cannot locate him or my great great grandfather in the 1891 census. I found my 2 x grandfather in the 1871 census but not in 1861 lol. Might be a Payne knack of disappearing for census lol.
Thanks for the heads up on the  CWGC i go that way it seems to be the best route to go.

[Valda]

Hi

1891 census RG12 624 folio 76
1 St John's Grove Barnes Surrey
Maurice Payne 41 Head Married Coachman Domestic Barnes Surrey
Annie Payne 44 Wife Married Kennington Surrey
Ernest Payne 16 Son Greengrocer's assistant Mortlake Surrey
Arthur J Payne 12 Son Mortlake Surrey
Austin Payne 10 Son Mortlake Surrey
Bertha Payne 7 Daughter Mortlake Surrey

1861 census RG9 461 folio 109
Back Lane Barnes Surrey
Austin Payne 37 Head Married Coachman Mortlake Surrey
Jane Payne 43 Wife Married Hope Montgomeryshire
Maria Payne 14 Daughter Barnes Surrey
Sarah E Payne 13 Daughter  Barnes Surrey
Maurice Payne 11 Son Barnes Surrey
William Payne 9 Son Barnes Surrey
Henry Payne 7 Son Barnes Surrey
Eliza Payne 5 Daughter Barnes Surrey
Thomas Payne 3 Son Barnes Surrey
John Payne 2 Son Barnes Surrey
Jessie Brooks 2 Boarder


Where were Austin's 4 children born and when?



Regards

Valda

[Sherlock.Holmes]

Thanks Valda

Hadn't thought of Morris as it appears in 1901 could be spelt as Maurice in other census Very useful.

About the 4 children this where history is murky. My grandfather died in 1980 in New Zealand with is daughter. After that we had lost total contact with rest of the Payne family back in UK.

My mother is certain birth order is Len (Leonard) Beatrice, then my grandfather Edward and then Robert. The only one i have identified so far is my grandfather Edward born in Staines Middlesex in 1906.
Len and Beatrice therefore had to be born between 1902 and 1906. I've found 2 Len Payne's in Surrey but timing is out as marriage of Austin and Harriet took place in last quarter 1902. Beatrice I'm not to sure about as well possible birth year 1904/05 mum thinks. As for Robert (Bob) being a very common name that's hard.  Mum thinks he was born in 1908.

 As for where I'm tried Kent, Harriet birth county, London and Middlesex my grandfather birth county and Austin birth county of Surrey

[Annette7]

This might seem a daft question but are you absolutely sure that Austin John Payne married Harriet Timson?    The reason I ask is that there is a public tree on Ancestry which states his wife was Emily Susan Bird (the other bride on the GRO Marriage Index Page, other groom being William Henry Brazier).

Can't see a death for a Harriet Payne of correct age in Bucks/Berks but an Emily S. Payne b.1879 d. 1951 Hammersmith, hence my question.   Although you state he was older a Leonard Payne was b.Mar.qtr.1913 Staines, mothers maiden name Bird??
If wife was Emily there's a possible listing in 1911 which covers some of the named children.

Thought I'd better ask.

Annette