John Burns born 1831 Ireland

[Wilbs]

When John William Burns married Grace Wilberforce in Toxteth Park, Liverpool in 1897 he named his father as John William Burns (deceased) calico printer.  John’s age at marriage is indistinct (ink has faded) and is either 30 or 39 giving him a birth year of 1858 or 1867.  Witness to the marriage was Margaret Burns and the groom gave his place of residence as 1 Chester Street – Margaret’s house.

So I traced back Margaret and discovered that Margaret McPherson married a John Burns at Christmas 1853 in Paisley High Church.  John was a police officer, but went on to be a master mariner and they had 5 children, including John Burns jnr born 7 May 1857 in Paisley. So, I put two and two together and decided that John senior and Margaret were my 2 x great grand parents and moved on with the rest of my tree.

But niggles about a calico printer never went away.  I sent away for John & Margaret’s youngest daughter’s 1872 birth certificate and this showed John’s occupation as Master Mariner – so why would his son in 1897 claim that his father was a calico printer?

Back to the beginning and oops, I think I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

1851 Scotland census – living at 6 Rowan Street, Paisley Abbey
Mary Burns, 53, domestic purposes, born Ireland
James Burns, 23, calico printer, born Ireland
Cathrine Burns, 25, seamstress, born Ireland
Mary Burns, 18, bleacher, born Ireland
John Burns, 20, (born 1831), son, calico printer
Ann Burns, 5, granddaughter, born Dumbarton
Cathrine Burns, 9 mths, granddaughter, born Dumbarton
…… also at the same address ……
Rosana Burns, 21, domestic purposes, born Ireland
Miles Burns, 19, brother, calico printer, born Ireland
Michael Burns, 17, brother, calico printer, born Ireland
John Burns, 15, (born 1836) brother, calico printer, born Ireland

So I have two John Burns, both calico printers in 1851 living at the same address (possibly cousins).  The 1861 census has John Burns, policeman living at Inverkip, married to Margaret as being born in 1835, so this would be the younger of the cousins.

What happened to the older John Burns born 1831? Can any one help? 

Than you

Wilbs

[floraview]

Hello,
I just discovered your post while doing a general search online.  You and I are looking at the same 1851 census entry for Mary Burns, James Burns, Cathrine and John Burns at 6 Rowan St. Paisley.
I've been able to trace my family history to a Michael and Mary Burns who lived in Paisley but we can't find a record of Michael's death.  I'm not sure if this is our Mary or not.  We are descended from John Burns who married Jean Kean in 1859.  John would have been born in 1831 so I'm jumping to a conclusion that this family, with Mary as the head, is the right family.  I know Mary also had a son named James but the other names are unknown to me.  I wonder who's children Ann, aged 5 and Cathrine, aged 9 mo. are.
I don't know if I can be of any help to you but I thought it was interesting that we're looking at the same family.
I've been searching for ages now and feel as though I've hit a brick wall!

[Wilbs]

Hi Flora

Lovely to hear from you - especially that you are having problems with this family as well.  I thought it was just me!  How hard can it be to find a Burns in Scotland!

I have posted several on-line chats about this family.  If you Google "Wilbs" and "Grace Wilberforce" you will probably pick up most and you may be able to see what I'm obviously missing.

When you mention "Michael" and "Mary" were they the cousins born 1834 and 1833 respectively (ie one from each family) or did Michael marry a Mary or visa verse?

Where did your family end up?  Mine moved to Liverpool and became seamen and this is why the niggle of the calico printer appears.  I know that because of the American War of Independence the southern negro slaves stopped producing cotton and this had a devastating affect on the Scottish fabric industry. So it was very likely that John Burns senior would have had to find another trade, but his son's marriage certificate doesn't reflect this.

My current thoughts are that John Burns senior either died as a calico printer or Junior was illegitimate and when his mother was pressed for details of his parentage, she gave the only information she knew. Of course, at three o'clock in the morning, when my mind is racing, all sorts of permutations pop into my head and today's thoughts will be tomorrow's bad ideas.

Best wishes

Wilbs

[floraview]

Hi Wilbs,

I still can't get over the fact that we're both searching for a John Burns born in 1831 who was a calico printer. 

I haven't had a chance to Google your suggestions but I will soon then I'll be more familiar with what you're looking for. 

I thought I'd answer your questions first. 

Michael and Mary Burns are definitely my gggGrandfather and gggGrandmother.  We know Mary died in 1860 at the age of 63 so that would mean she was born abt. 1797.  I would assume Michael was roughly the same age.  We're quite sure they came from Ireland but it's so hard to trace back the Irish records.

I'm trying to find as much information about them as possible that's why that 1851 census is so improtant to me.  If it's the correct Mary then that tells me that Michael was already dead or missing at that time.  We have plenty of infomation about the family on the 1861 census.  John, the son of Michael and Mary, born in 1831, was married to Jean Kean in 1859 and they had a son named George who is my gGrandfather.  John died in 1863 at the age of 34.  He was a boat yard labourer at the time.  Does that fit into any information you have?  I have no records of a police officer in our family.

The family stayed in the Paisely area until the late 1800s when they moved to Glasgow. 

I was born in Glasgow but now live in Canada.
Maybe we can PM each other with more detail.
I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this!
Thanks,
Flora

[Brianastalzer]

Hello fellow Burns family. John J Burns is my 3rd great grandfather and I am trying to trace my family as far back I can and I hit a dead end with John J Burns. Any help would be appreciated. Would love to find more family. John died fighting in the civil war.

[Forfarian]

Hello fellow Burns family. John J Burns is my 3rd great grandfather and I am trying to trace my family as far back I can and I hit a dead end with John J Burns. Any help would be appreciated. Would love to find more family. John died fighting in the civil war.

Which civil war? The English civil war in the 1640s, or the United States civil war two centuries later?

Either way, the two John Burns discussed in this thread cannot be your John J Burns.

So what more do you know about your John J Burns - for example, when and where he was born, and when he died and how old he was when he died?