William CARR

[pwh]

jon,
i found that too. If the problem persists you might have to go into the  Trove  site and put in
"Magaret Greenough bigamy case". Thats how i found it.

                                                                           Peter

[majm]

Peter

It is becoming very confusing to me.

I mentioned three threads and you reply  'both'.  You addressed the particular post to 'David' so may I note that David usually is found on the Bedfordshire Board.  I don't know how to check if someone was living in Bedfordshire in 1883. 

I also do not know why you would need to check this detail unless it conflicts with some known information about Jane Reeve's son Joseph Keeling.  Do you have the marriage certificate for the Joseph Keeling who married in NSW in the 1890s Does something on that mc conflict with the info in the article of 1884 perhaps?

Cheers JM

Jm,
         Given the fact that most of the central characters in this saga are in both threads
i would think that they are different chapters of the same story.

                                                                                          Peter

[majm]

Some thoughts

There are two known Obits 1936 for Mrs HART that mention CARR.  Is it likely the second one was the newspaper's way of overcoming an embarassing error in the first one? That is ... that noone travelled under the names of Mr and/or Mrs William Carr on that voyage and that a reader of the first Obit had Battler prepare the second one showing a Bill Carr arriving in FNQ in the 1870s not in 1865 ... afterall Joseph Keeling is the name Jon found on that 1865 voyage ?

Mrs Hart's role as a midwife may well have been similar to other midwives in that ra ... Assisting women who did not carry their pregnancy to full term?

Cheers JM

[SherlockBones]

JM
Was starting to think along the lines that you were. That the first obit and the mention of Ann and her married sister (Mr. & Mrs. William Carr) was an error in so much there was a Keeling on the voyage out, presumably with his wife, AND also a William Carr. Both of these gentleman BTW were butchers by trade according to the newspaper accounts.
 
Started to think that these names became intertwined for some reason and the confusion continued. After all that obit mentions 17 children but official records from d\certs only show 12 to this marriage and one to her (Ann's) first marriage to Green. Total 13.

"Battler" in his obit writes: - "Mrs. Harry Hart must surely be the last of the Rockhampton residents who arrived by the Royal Dane in July, 1865. Other single girls who came out and married were the late Mrs. W. K. Higson, Mrs. J. T. S. Bird, and Mrs. Con. Hourigan. Among the married were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Hitchcock, Mr. and Mrs. .T. W. Power, and Mr. and Mrs. W. J. Wright. Bill Carr was a noted early day butcher, but who went North in the seventies and for many years led the board at the meat works at Townsville"  etc

Doesn't it seem odd the way the article launches straight into Bill Carr was a noted.....etc. There does not appear to be any continuity to the article\sentences. It's like there was cut and paste or whatever it was called in the day. Something is missing!! Or me english ain't proper.

There are significant reports in the papers for Joseph Keeling being around during the 60's & 70"s and a final hurray in the late 90's when he wants crown land to grow grapes. There is a brief mention of Wm. Carr wanting to hire butchers in the early 70's. IF these gentlemen WERE one and the same why would they\he be swapping between names?

HOWEVER..There is always a however....!!!
In the Argus, Friday 10 March 1882: - ....Greenough charged with bigamy. It was stated that some two years ago previous to this (his current marriage) it is alleged that he had been married to another woman named Gades[sic] or Carr, from whom he separated but obtained no legal divorce.

This then begs the question..Where did the reporter (In Victoria) get the information from that his (Greenough's) first wife was a Gates\Carr. It could only have come from Margaret Gates herself who, incidentally, was pressing charges, and who married under her maiden name of Gates, obviously wanting to hide her past.

Just spitballing here......I wonder if, after Margaret and Joseph Keeling went their seperate ways, that Margaret and William Carr forged a relationship for a period of time and the fact that both gentlemen were butchers and that they also came out on the same ship, that it has all helped in the later confusion as to who her (Margaret's) husband actually was. 
It is about the only logical explanation left.

Jon

[majm]

Bill was already at Clermont QLD when Joseph arrived in FNQ with Margaret.  Margaret trvelled as Jane Keeling.   Jane nver came to Oz.   Argaret was the common law wife in the assault of Joseph.  Aqrgaret then took up with Bill.  That failed too.  Argaret then went to Vic.    Mrs Hart was embarassed with her sister.   Joseph KEeling Snr returned to Bedford and his eldest son came to Vic with proof that his parents were stillmarried.  HE then stayed in Aust and fiddled a cash cheque for ten bob and seved 3 yrs with Hard Labour as punishment.

[SherlockBones]

JM

Are these just observations?

Margaret could have travelled as Jane but I think it was another Jane that stabbed Joseph. IIRC he said in one report "It's just a woman I live with" I think he and Margaret went their separate ways probs around the mid 60's. Again there is a report somewhere I think to do with the bigamy case that said they separated shortly after their arrival. If that was the case that would give Margaret an almost an 8 year window to meet and develop a relationship with William Carr before she shows up in Melbourne being married to Greenough in 1874.
I don't think Joseph Keeling senior went back to the UK. Remember he was still around in Queensland in 1893. Unless he went back and then returned again to Qld. Joseph junior came out in 1884.

[majm]

JM

Are these just observations?

Margaret could have travelled as Jane but I think it was another Jane that stabbed Joseph. IIRC he said in one report "It's just a woman I live with" I think he and Margaret went their separate ways probs around the mid 60's. Again there is a report somewhere I think to do with the bigamy case that said they separated shortly after their arrival. If that was the case that would give Margaret an almost an 8 year window to meet and develop a relationship with William Carr before she shows up in Melbourne being married to Greenough in 1874.
I don't think Joseph Keeling senior went back to the UK. Remember he was still around in Queensland in 1893. Unless he went back and then returned again to Qld. Joseph junior came out in 1884.

Hi there,

I apologise for my inadequate post, my excuse being it was typed up from a tiny wifi keyboard.

Clermont is in FNQ, and the coastal port/s that would have serviced it in the 1860/s and 1870/s would be either Rockhampton or Mackay.

So, I think it is very likely that the William CARR with a Timber Licence to obtain HARDWOOD in and around Clermont in the six months BEFORE the Royal Dane brought Joseph KEELING to FNQ could therefore be the same William CARR as mentioned in the first of the two obits for Mrs HART.  I mentioned that information at #48, and provided the source (Qld Govt Gazette, hopefully that would be a reliable source).  I think that Muss at # 50 of this very thread has provided that William CARR’s likely arrival with a wife and children to FNQ on that voyage.   

I think the second obit for Mrs HART is basically over-riding some of the “factoidal information” in the first one, and in particular it draws the reader’s attention to Bill CARR and explains why that person was not part of Mrs HART’s life back when she, as Miss GATES arrived on the Royal Dane to Rockhampton in July 1865. 

I notice that on Peter’s thread on the Bedfordshire board that David has provided some information from TNA’s A2A indexes.   http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,579751.0.html reply  #21.  Clearly that Mrs KEELING, ie Jane REEVE did not come to Australia.  Her husband had deserted her several years before Margaret GATES married Joseph KEELING. 

There is the marriage of a Joseph KEELING in NSW in 1893 mentioned in Trove and indexed on NSW BDM.  A transcript of that mc may help determine who were the witnesses, and also if that was Jane REEVE’s son who married.  There’s mention of the 1884 charges and sentence of a Joseph KEELING at Albury NSW.   Was that his father who was back at in the UK by the time of that marriage as per the newspaper announcement  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580149.0.html

Edited to sort out some grammar.

Cheers,  JM

[SherlockBones]

JM
I saw Muss's post about the Wm Carr and family who arrived in 1863 two years before Joseph and Margaret Keeling. This could well be THE Wm. Carr.

However I don't believe Wm. Carr the Timber Getter would be the one that was involved with Margaret. Clermont was a very long distance by dray back in the 1860's and Wm. the timber getter and family would be well entrenched out in the middle of nowhere. He wouldn't have been in Rockhampton long enough to forge a permanent relationship with Margaret; one that would later tag her as Mrs. Wm. Carr.

Our Joseph Keeling was a butcher by trade and by association, would have run in the same circles as Wm. Carr. In fact Ann Norah's obit states her sister Margaret's husband William Carr or Joseph Keeling, (take your pick) states  "Her brother-in-law obtained a situation at Pattison's slaughter yards a Gavial Creek" Perhaps William Carr \ Joseph Keeling worked for the same company.

This was the Wm. Carr advertising for mutton butchers in Rockhampton in 1871. An obit mentioned in 1936 that a W. Carr "a noted early day butcher" went north an managed the meat works at Townsville.

Reports indicate that Joseph Keeling and Margaret went their separate ways shortly after their arrival in the colony. Having arrived in 1865 I would suggest around  1866 at the latest. Remember Joseph was being stabbed by Jane "a women who lives with him" in July of 1867.

A Wm. Carr was advertising for mutton butchers in 1871 in Rockhampton in 1871 with an obit later mentioning that a W. Carr "a noted early day butcher" went north an managed the meat works at Townsville.

Given Margaret and Joseph went their separate way in 1866, I believe Margaret forged a relationship with said Wm. Carr butcher, and for which she has been remembered for ever since, because of William's renown as "a noted early day butcher"

This relationship could have endured for anywhere up to 6\7 years with William heading north and Margaret later heading south where she married Wm. Greenough in 1874

[majm]

Newly cut Hardwood timber was removed by bullock teams and taken to seaports for shipment to cities.  Timber cutters needed to be bullock drivers.  Bullock drivers needed to know how to butcher animals properly to feed themselves and their families.  Clermont timber went to what market?

Cheers JM