Arms query

[bean]

The arms in my avatar are described thus:

Quarterly, 1st and 4th,
gu. a griffin segreant or. for DAVIES ; 2nd
and 3rd, arg. a lion rampt. sa. over all a
fesse engr. gu. for POWELL. Crest, A
griffin segreant or. In right of his wife,
Marianne, 3rd dau. of John Lewis, Esq., of
Harpton Court, co. Radnor, and sister of
the Right Hon. Sir Thomas Frankland
Lewis. Bart., Mr. Davies impales the quar-
tered coat of LEWIS of Harpton.

But i seem to be managing to confuse myself on what's what!
I've always thought the lion was for Davies and the griffin was for Powell but i could convince myself that it's the other way around based on the above description. Also what does the bit in red actually mean?

any help would be great - thanks

[Little Nell]

The words in red are not actually shown in the arms  in your avatar.  It implies that Mr Davies used arms which were based on the arms you already show on the left hand side of the shield as viewed from the front, but on the right was another quartering, which were the arms of his heiress wife.

The blazon (heraldic description) that you give does mean that the griffin in the avatar arms is for Davies (as expected since this is the name of the bearer of the arms), while the griffin lion is for Powell.

Nell

Edit amended my typing error above

[davidbappleton]

According to Burke's General Armory, the arms of Lewis (Harpton Court, co. Radnor, baronet), were:

Argent a cross double parted and fretty sable, in the 1st and 4th quarters an eagle displayed gules, and in the 2nd and 3rd quarters a lion rampant sable, ducally crowned or.

So he would have been using the arms from your avatar on the left (dexter) side of the shield, and the above-blazoned coat on the right (sinister) side of the shield.

David

[bean]

Thank you both for your replies.
How would i find out where the lion rampant comes from, I had assumed it was for Davies as I assumed that the griffin on the crest would be for the same family as the griffin on the shield - must learn NOT to assume!
James Daviess' father, William Davies of Bronllys Castle, married Esther Powell hence my assumption.

I will have to see if Blazons can draw the impaled arms - that could be fun!

[davidbappleton]

Burke's General Armory gives the arms Argent a lion rampant sable, a fess engrailed gules as those of "Powell (Pilworth, co. Surrey)."

You are correct, however, that it is more likely that the griffin crest goes with the arms in the first and fourth quarters.  It's just that this quarter is Davies and not Powell.  Again, from Burke:

"Davies (Moor Court, co Hereford; as borne by James Davies, Esq., of that place, a magistrate for the county).  Quarterly, 1st and 4th, gu. a griffin segreant or, for Davies; 2nd and 3rd, ar. a lion ramp. sa. over all a fesse engr. gu., for Powell.  Crest--A griffin segreant or."

David

[bean]

Thank you David - it's all starting to make sense now.

So the Griffin crest and arms are for Davies and the Lion arms are for Powell.

Does the (Pilworth,co. Surrey) in your answer imply that that is where the family originated? I ask as i have a family tree for Powell from the marraige of Esther Powell to William Davies in the early 1700's back to a Lewis ap Hoel ap Lewis (name in deed as Lewis Powell Lewis) in 1592 in Breconshire (Jones History of Brecknockshire, Vol.2, p. 687)

I managed to draw some of the arms of Lewis of Harpton Court in Blazons but it really didn't want to draw those arms impaled with the arms of James Davies.
I'll have to keep trying! I assume (doing it again!) that it would be the the two sets of quartered arms side by side, so 8 squares?

Thank you for all your help

[davidbappleton]

I expect that "Pilworth, co. Surrey" is just where Burke found a Powell using the arms; it would not necessarily be the place from where the family originated.

Well, it might look a little like eight "squares" or quarters, but only because the Lewis arms have red eagles in dexter chief and sinister base and black lions in sinister chief and dexter base.  The fact that the entire shield is white, with the black cross parted and fretted dividing the eagles and lions, makes this look more like a single rather than a quartered coat.  (I've attached a "quick and dirty" .jpg of roughly what the Lewis arms would look like, done with some basic heraldic clipart.)

David

[bean]

Thanks once again David - the arms look brilliant, do you use specific software?

I didn't explain myself very clearly with regard to the impaled arms, which is what i meant by the 8 squares. Now I see that the Lewis arms do, as you say, really look like a single coat it's getting clearer. The impaled arms would have the quartered coat of Davies on the left (4 squares) and the quartered coat of Lewis (technically 4 suares but in reality looks like 1) on the right.

Making another assumption, and probably wrong, would James Davies or his father been likely to have already held arms in order to quarter them with the Powell family?

Many thanks for all your help, I'm finding this quite an absorbing subject.
As an aside are there any books you'd recommend on heraldry - sort of a dummies guide so to speak?

[davidbappleton]

You are most welcome!  The only software I used is a very old version of Paint Shop Pro that I've had for years, as being just a little more versatile than Microsoft's Paint program.  The most important element is the collection of heraldic clipart I've managed to collect over the years!

Based on the information you gave in one of your earlier posts in this thread, William Davies of Bronllys Castle would have already had (or acquired, or assumed) arms, which his son James then quartered with his mother's Powell arms.  (A possible alternative is that an earlier Davies married another Powell, and the quartered coat of arms of their children descended to William.)

One of the very best introductory books that I can recommend is Simple Heraldry, Cheerfully Explained by Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk and Don Pottinger.  It is no longer in print, but can often be found in used book stores (including Heraldry Today) or there are currently more than a dozen copies available at amazon.co.uk at various, some quite good, prices.

I hope that all this information is helpful to you.

David