Where to next?

[Vita Brevis]

I have a relative Charles McGrath married in Belfast in 1881 born c1857 so before registration.  His marriage record gives his fathers name as Daniel & occupation as farmer & only his mother's christian name as Sarah.   A note on marriage record says that both his parents were from Tyrone.  I have tried Griffiths, but of course the reference to "a farmer" doesn't necessarily mean he rented any land.

I've searched for any birth records on EA, Ancestry, Roots Ireland and Co Tyrone Ireland Geneaology site for any siblings etc using the names for both parents, with absolutely no luck both in Tyrone & Belfast

Unfortunately Charles died before 1901 census so I can't cross reference anything on there.  

The only glimmer of hope is a Daniel & Sarah on 1901 census in Tyrone, Daniel aged 85 (which may fit) but have no way of knowing if they are related.

Can anyone suggest where I can go from here? Charles is my paternal grandfather & I just can't believe that I'm stuck in 1881.  I've hit many brick walls with others in my family tree but have eventually overcome some of them, but this ... I just don't know where to go to next.

I know that many innoccuos requests are made on these forums, but I really am going round the bend after 3 years of searching, so any help, advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as at 72 year old I'm running out of steam  ....  Many thanks VB
  

[aghadowey]

It sounds like the marriage record you have is a church record rather than the civil certificate. Does it list Daniel McGrath's occupation (civil certificates list name and occupation of father) and Charles' address (civil certificate will list residence of groom at time of marriage)? Was Charles Catholic?

[Vita Brevis]

hi aghadowey, thank you for your reply.  I have found both civil & church marriage records for Charles online.  The civil one gives Charles address as Michael St and his father's details as Daniel McGrath, farmer and mother Sarah.  The church record gives Charle's address as Artillery St.  Comments at the bottom of this record state that both groom & brides fathers are deceased and what appears to be dispensation (I'm assuming for Charles who may not have lived in the parish, as I know the bride definately lived in Artillery St)  and that both his parents were from Tyrone.  Charles was Catholic  VB

[aghadowey]

Your answer is a bit confusing-

The civil one gives Charles address as Michael St and his father's details as Daniel McGrath, farmer and mother Sarah.

Civil marriage certificates never list mother's name 

[Vita Brevis]

your're confused you should be in my shoes!  ok here is what I have

1st record:                                                                       2nd record@

Type Civil Marriages                                                 Type Marriages
Date Of Marriage 27/09/1881                                     Date Of Marriage 27/09/1881
Husband Firstname CHARLES                                     Husband Firstname CHARLES
Husband Surname    MCGRATH                                     Husband Surname MCGRATH
Husband Townland / Street 18 MICHAEL ST      Husband Townland / Street ARTILLERY STREET
Husband Occupation RIVETER                                     Husband Occupation    
Husband Age 24                                                   Husband Age    
Husband Denomination Roman Catholic                      Husband Denomination Roman Catholic
Husband Marital Status Bachelor (Previously unmarried)    Husband Marital Status    
Husband Father Firstname DANIEL                        Husband Father Firstname DANIEL
Husband Father Surname MCGRATH                        Husband Father Surname MCGRATH
Husband Father Occupation FARMER                        Husband Father Occupation    
Husband Mother Firstname SARAH                        Husband Mother Firstname SARAH
Husband Mother Surname                            Husband Mother Surname Husband Witness Firstname PATRICK                                  Husband Witness Firstname PATRICK
Husband Witness Surname CALVIN                  Husband Witness Surname NOLAN         
Wife Witness Firstname HELEN                                 Wife Witness Firstname MARGARET
Wife Witness Surname MCCLUGH                   Wife Witness Surname MCCULLOUGH

Comment REV H MAJORIAN MARRIED IN ST PATRICKS MGR FATHERS OF BRIDE AND GROOM DECEASED.    
Comment DISP REV J HAMILL REV H MAGORIAN œ1 0 0 MGR HUSBAND'S PARENTS FROM CO TYRONE.

In light of your comments, I'm now looking at this again and wondering whether there were two church entries for some reason.  I have never been able to understand the two different names for the grooms witness, although I'm prepared to accept a possible mistake on the brides witness, it is all a bit strange.  Either way, his father is given as a farmer & his mother as Sarah, but Sarah who?  VB

[aghadowey]

As I said earlier, civil marriage records do NOT (even now) list mother's name. The website you got the records from is a bit misleading as to the witnesses- civil marriage records usually have 2 witnesses (only rarely are there more) but neither are designated in the register as bride's or groom's. Also, the register doesn't list the religion of bride or groom.

Record #1 might be the details from the civil marriage record 'embellished' a bit by adding name of groom's mother and religion as R.C. since wedding took place in a Catholic church.

The witnesses' names are probably the same (one record read Patrick's surname as Calvin and the other as Nolan- either or neither might be correct)

[Vita Brevis]

just about sums it up!  So if I order the civil marriage cert, will that give his mothers maiden name?  ie was that done in 1881?

[aghadowey]

No, mother's name does NOT appear at all on marriage certificates- even today only father of bride and father of groom is listed. See here for details on Irish marriage certificates-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html

[Vita Brevis]

thanks aghadowey for your help.  next question .. how can you help me move on?  I have already come across another family member where the marriage, even after registration came into place, doesn't appear to have been registered ... church error or what, I have no idea, but there is no civil cert available, I've applied for it & it doesn't exist. 

I'm still left with his name, parents names'ish, that his father was a farmer & that both parents came from Tyrone but no way that I can see to finding out who Charles was before he married.  All the records I've searched ie Giffiths for a farmer named Daniel etc pre registration leads me nowhere, unless I'm not looking in the right places. 

I tried searching 1901 census anywhere in Tyrone for possible family members and what I came up with were people who were likely to have been related to each other but without any obvious connection to my Charles/Daniel.

Any suggestions that you can make as to how I can progress back from Charle's marriage records given the info that I have for the Tyrone connections would be gratefully recieved.  I've searched LDS, LDS pilot search, EA, UHS, AI, rootschat, Griffiths etc .. but nothing, so any ideas outside the obvious would be really appreciated.

I do know that any births pre civil registraion would have to be tracked down via the actual church records, but I have no idea where to start with this one, Tyrone was a big place in 1850's, that's assuming he was a RC & not a convert (accepting from his marriage cert, there is nothing to indicate he was a convert ie, I haven't found a baptism record online to suggest that he was) so I'm back to my original posting...Where do I go from here? 

All your help is appreciated on this one.  Frustrated VB