John Welsh/Ann McKenzie

[cew1]

Hello. long time follower, first time user, so please excuse any mistakes. I have reached a brick wall with 2xgrandparents John and Ann. they had the following children;
Jane 1845
Mary abt 1847
Margaret 1849
John 1851
Walter 1853
Henry 1856.
I have S.C.A. certs for Jane, Margaret, John and Henry, all bapt. Edinburgh St Mary's. parents listed as John Welsh and Ann McKenzie. I have stat. birth cert for Henry, born Edinburgh, again, parents, John Welsh and Ann McKenzie. I haven't found a birth record for Mary.
I have death certs. for Margaret in 1851, John in 1852, John Welsh, labourer, father, place of death for both Toddrick's Wynd, Edinburgh.
I have a death cert. for Henry in 1858 at Canongate Poor House, parents John Welsh, Ann Welsh ms  McKenzie.
Mary married in 1868, aged 20, parents John Welsh, mason's lab. and Ann Welsh, ms McKenzie.
Walter married in 1877, parents John Welsh, dealer in  barrels, Ann Welsh, ms McKenzie, deceased.
Walter's death cert. in 1904 lists parents as John Welsh, barrel dealer, deceased, and Ann McKenzie, deceased.
The family appears in 1851 census, John born in Kilmore, Ireland and Ann in Canongate. Ann and John then 'disappear'. I can find Walter, Jane and Mary in later census from 1871 but nothing definite for Ann and John. I have not managed to find a record of their marriage, either.  A John Welsh, married to Mary, appears in 1861 -1891 Census, in 1881 his occupation is shown as dealer in wine
and spirit casks, and in 1891 - cask merchant. sounds like same John, but was having children with Mary at the same time as Ann. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

cew

[MonicaL]

Hi Cew

Does the 1858 death cert for young Henry b. 1856 show his parents as still alive?

A John Welsh, married to Mary, appears in 1861 -1891 Census, in 1881 his occupation is shown as dealer in wine and spirit casks, and in 1891 - cask merchant. sounds like same John, but was having children with Mary at the same time as Ann.

There is a marriage showing on IGI:

John WELSH and Mary REGAN    
Marriage on 25 Oct. 1856 in Edinburgh Parish

A number children are showing as born to this couple on IGI, starting with the birth of Thomas on 26 July 1857 in Edinburgh. I think this is the couple/family you are seeing in the censuses between 1861-91.

Whether this is John Snr, having remarried a few months after the birth of Henry in 1856, hard to say really. John who married Mary Regan may show batchelor or widower on his 1856 marriage entry. You don't have his parents details already so nothing really to compare against on this 1856 marriage entry other than a possible clue on his marital status.

Two things that would help would be a death for mother Ann post the birth of Henry in 1856 and also where the other children of Ann and John were on the 1861 census. Neither which are jumping out are they!

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Possible for Mary in 1861:

Mary Welsh, 13, b. Edinburgh, resident at The Convent of the Religious of the Good Shepherd and Reformatory School for Girls, in Shettleston Lanarkshire

Monica

[cew1]

good morning Monica. Many thanks for your reply.

I have a copy of the marriage certificate for John Welsh and Mary Regan,  John is described as a bachelor, and Mary as a widow. I found an earlier marriage, in 1855, between Mary and a Thomas Taylor. On one of her children's birth certificates she is listed as Mary Reigan or Tallah.

I suppose its possible that John and Ann never married.

John's age is given as 22, and his parents are John Welsh, labourer, deceased, and Bridget Welsh, maiden name McGraw, deceased.

On Mary's death certificate in 1893, her husband John, barrel merchant, is the notifier.

I ,too, wondered if the Mary listed in the 1861 census at Shettleston was 'my' Mary. In 1869 she reappears in Edinburgh, when she gives birth to the first of three children with John McCallum.

In the 1871 census a Walter Welsh, aged 17, born in Edinburgh, is listed as a prisoner at Dunnottar, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire.

Thanks again for taking a interest

cew1

[megdorton]

Hi there: I am the GGG granddaughter of John Welsh by his second "wife," Mary Regan. I would be very interested in connecting with you more about my ancestors. I cannot find records of Ann and John marrying, and I did not know about their child Margaret.

Mary Regan and John appeared have children named Ann, Thomas, Michael, John, Peter, and Mary. Thomas, Michael, and John emigrated to NYC/NJ in the United States in the 1880s/1890s.

I would love to chat more! If you are on ancestry, you can see my tree at:

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/162594775/family/familyview

[Forfarian]

I have a copy of the marriage certificate for John Welsh and Mary Regan,  John is described as a bachelor, and Mary as a widow.
John's age is given as 22, and his parents are John Welsh, labourer, deceased, and Bridget Welsh, maiden name McGraw, deceased.

If John was really aged 22 when he married Mary Regan on 25 October 1856, he would have been born between 26 October 1833 and 25 October 1834, so only at most 11 years old when Jane, born 7 March 1845, was conceived. He would not have been old enough to marry until at least 36 October 1847.

According to the 1851 census, John Welsh, husband of Ann McKenzie, was 29. If this is accurate he was born between 31 March 1821 and 30 March 1822.

According to the 1851 census, John Welsh, husband of Mary Regan, was 57. If this is accurate he was born between 4 April 1823 and 3 April 1824.

So it looks very much as if the age on his marriage is a decade or so out.

Would the RC Church have required evidence of John and Ann being married before agreeing to baptise four or more children?

I wonder who the 59-year-old widowed John McKenzie, born Ross and Cromarty, is? Could he possibly be Ann's father, or some other relative?

[cew1]

Hi Meg.

I'm very excited to hear from you. I let my Ancestry membership lapse four weeks ago (wouldn't you know it) so I cannot have a look at your tree. I did a lot of work on my tree at the beginning of the year and managed to tie up a few loose ends but couldn't find out what happened to Ann McKenzie.

John Welsh is also my husband's GGG grandfather through his son Walter. I think you have to make three posts before you can pm me.

I look forward to hearing from you. 

chris

[megdorton]

Chris: Thank you so much for responding. Here is post two! And I'll see if I can make a third one in short order. I am very excited to talk with you too. I descend through John and Mary's 3 child, Michael. (Michael died relatively young and it plunged the family into chaos. My great grandmother, whom I loved very much, refused to tell anyone very much at all about her family and so I had no information about them, including Michael's name or that he was born in Scotland!) My next post will be about Ann. 

[megdorton]

Hi Again:
Here is what I know about Ann. I can't find a birth record for her. In the 1851 census, John McKenzie is living with the family. He was born in Strathan, Ross-shire from what I could glean from the records. There is Canongate birth certificate for an Ann McKenzie in 1824 in Canongate, and lists the parents as Malcolm and Margaret Wallace. However, I think they were Protestant. I am not sure if John or Malcolm or someone else was Ann's father.

I know Ann died by by 1874, bc she is listed as deceased on his marriage certificate. Notably, Walter must have known something about his dad, because Walter lists his father's occupation (cask dealer) on his marriage certificate. I obtained John's will, and he does not acknowledge Ann's kids in it.

As you mentioned, Henry, the baby, died at the Poorhouse in October 1858. I found records of what I think are Ann's appeals at the Poorhouse in December 1858-Feb 1859, finally granting her and the kids admittance. The timing is certainly odd. Ann is listed as "Ann Welsh or McKenzie" so I think it is likely her.

When I was searching for records related to Mary Effingham, Ann and John's second daughter, who was institutionalized, I also came across records for an Ann Noble McKenzie who was also institutionalized at the Edinburgh asylum during the period where the records go blank. That Ann is listed as single, dying of mania and dysentery in 1861 at age 38, no parents listed. I need to figure how to get the case records to check to see if this is the same Ann.

I have no idea what happened to Jane.

There are some other folks doing a bit of research who descended from Walter. One is the unspecified grandaughter of Henry Welsh and Annie Paget, and there are a couple of others who descend from Henry and Annie's son David. One of those persons, who hasn't corresponded to me, listed Jane as emigrating to Canada, but didn't supply records to support that.

I think I have a way of sharing my tree with you! Hopefully this will post and you can I can correspond. Take care. And thanks!

Meg