Sarah Watkins

[jk22]

Hello.  Have been here before but am hoping again for some light!
Sarah is my gggrandmother born in "Radnorshire, Brecknoik" as per 1851 census.  This is not a real address i believe.  Sarah's father was a William Watkins, a Farmer as per the mg cert which seems to be correct in the fuller schematic!  However i am not sure of her birth year:  she gives her age in 1851 as 37, therefore birthyear = 1814.  Then in 1861 her age is 40 and she is widowed with 4 children - so her byr is 1820. My ggrandmother is Jane, the youngest born in 1855.  Sarah's hub was Robert Green who i think died in 1858 in the workhouse, in Tendring, Essex.  Sarah and Robert married in 1844, at St Bride's, London.  He was a widower.
I trawled the Familysearch website and found many Sarah Watkins and some are attractive but with only very partial concurrences.
Sarah i surmise left Wales and may have been in London in 1841.  There are many there at the time.  I found one where she is in the West London Union Workhouse in St Bride's, Middlesex!  Maybe she met Robert Green there too - he widowed and both destitute.  They md at St Bride's in 1844 and moved to Weeley, Essex, where they had their 4 children.  I believe Sarah later remarried to a former lodger David Adams.  I don't think the marriage lasted long. 
Any further help would be much appreciated.
Julie

[cardiff]

Hi
 I noted that on the 1851 census
Sarah as you said is born Radnorshire Brecknoik that word should read Brecknock or slso known as Breconshire these are two counties next to each other in Wales. Only a guess but she may have been born on the boundry of these two counties. You can be on one side of a lane  in Brecknock an the other  side you are in Radnorshire. So she may have put the two down because of that reason.
cheers cardiff

[jk22]

Hello Cardiff.

Thank you for your input.  I  have to say that after my own searches and some paid professional i accept that this is the likely reason why Sarah put both, but i remain perplexed as to why the enumerator didn't pick up on that.  Surely Sarah knew from which village or hamlet she came? 

Have you any suggestions as to which village/hamlet that sits astride the two counties and which might sound like 'Brecknock' to an Englishman of the time???

I guess it is just impossible to really know now.  One of her sons was called Octavius which is a rare name even then i surmise, so i have tried to find someone on her side who may have had that name.  Octavius was her second son, the first being John, which was probably taken from her husband's Green line.

Hope you can come up with something - if you're interested!

Kind regards
Julie

[cardiff]

Hi
where is sarah and family on the 1861 censsu please give ref
cheers cardiff
Ps
silly me found them now

[cardiff]

Hi
No I have not found them but!
the following is interesting regarding the name Octavia
Rg 1095 /129/12 Land Hall Cansey lane Wix Essex
Elizabeth Simson head b 1814 wix farmer 201 acers employing 2 men 1 boy
Alice Simson  sister b 1829 wix
Mary Ann Simson unmarried b 1825 wix essex
S Green visitor unmarried b 1843 wix
Octavia Green visitor b 1843 wix
 I just thought this to be interesting because of the name!
IN 1851 the same Octavia is with her parents at Fringhoe Hall 900acre farm
The Simson connection is on octavia's mothers side -her mother is staying with them, money looks like its from that side of the family?
H0107/1782/136/1
worth keeping for further ref.
could your green be the poor side of the family
cheers cardiff

[cardiff]

Hi
Can you please give me that ref for 1861 I just cannot find find them on the census 
cheers cardif

[jk22]

Hello Cardiff.

My Sarah Watkins now Green is a widow and living in Weeley, Essex with her 4 children and two lodgers.

Sarah's second child and son was called Octavius and i have his censuses to 1911 as i do for the other 3 siblings - the youngest Jane being my ggrandmother.

I'm sorry i'm not hopeful  re "Octavia" but i like your lateral!

Anway 1861 ref:  RG9; Piece 1092; Folio 178; p4

Kind regards
Julie

[cardiff]

Hi
The reason I could not find them has been transcribed as Gleen! thought I was going mad
cheers cardiff
Ps
I was trying to track sarah  to see if she gave anything else away about her place of birth?
It sounds like you have already done this, I have found it very hard to track her an her family I have looked through  on IGI for areas on the boarder of Radnorshire and Brecknock  but there does not seem to be any sarah watkins that comes close ???You say she gave her father has a farmer on the marriage certificate  he could well have been an ag Lab and driffed to where work was so crossing the boarders and she may never have been christened, If she had been destitute  in London it would have made sense to try to get back to Wales to her family that was farmers?, but she choose to go back to where  her husband was born and still he died, if you are right he died in the workhouse!
Just as matter of interest when did she die? and do you have the death certificate?
cheers cardiff

[jk22]

Hello Cardiff,
Sorry about the lapse in timely response.
My English 3rd cousin Peter and i have been working with a professional researcher on Sarah's first husband, Robert Green.  No great results sadly but a lot of clearance and contextual info.
Sarah Watkins md Robert Green in 1844 in London.  They moved to Essex and in Weeley they had 4 children:  John 1845, Octavious '47, Sarah Ann '49 and Jane Rebekah in '55.  Jane is my ggrandmother.
John md Catherine Jones in 1866 at St Andrew's, Weeley.  Both fathers were now "Dead". Witnesses were David Adams, later John's step-father (md his mother, Sarah, in 1874!) and an Anne Jones.  Likely to be Catherine's mother or sister.  Catherine's mother was formerly an Ann Watkins!  So if AW was the witness Anne Jones the mother, could she and Sarah have been either sisters or cousins?
That is:  John's parents were Robert Green and Sarah Watkins; Catherine's were Samuel Jones and Ann Watkins.
John was 13 years YOUNGER than Catherine when they md.  She was born in Holmer, Hereford.  The families appear close both in blood and in-law; also all probably involved to some degree in the droving/cattle/sheep industry which traversed their lands.  John and Catherine's censuses i have for several decades.  John was a "Cattle Dealer" and "Butcher".  They had 5 dtrs and only one living son, John.  All children born in Essex.
Hoping you might find something!
Kind regards,
Julie