Author Topic: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks  (Read 7346 times)

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #9 on: Friday 18 March 16 22:09 GMT (UK) »
Bryan Bentham, son of Francis, married Alice Cockain/Cokayne, daughter of Charles Cokayne, goldsmith. The other problem is  this Bryan is too young to be an uncle of Richard Redman.
Looking at your information, I think that Sarah Balthrop was Abraham's second wife. If they married in 1630, then Richard would have been only 17 or younger in 1647. And looking at Abraham's will, he only mentions son Richard, yet Richard names two brothers in his will. I would think Richard is either the oldest or youngest son of Abraham. So Abraham's first wife could have been a Bentham.
Francis Bentham came from Bedfordshire some time after 1639. There was another Bryan Bentham who married and had at least one daughter in Leighton Buzzard in the 1590's. I have yet to find a connection with Francis. If this is the "Uncle Bryan", then perhaps he was a cousin of Francis? That would account for the term kinsman; if this second Bryan was a brother of Francis, then Francis would be an uncle too.
Regarding the Brian Loomes info, Edward Gregory's son Jeremy was the father of Ann, who married Bryan Bentham, the son of Bryan Bentham and Alice Cokayne.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Carrington, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Bentham, Holloway, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Yorks, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline Matt Redman

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 19 March 16 00:55 GMT (UK) »
What you say makes sense. I have not come across a record of it but Abraham Redman could have married a Bentham before Sara(h) Balthrop. He was age 50 when he married Sara. Could a 17 yr old (or less) write a will?
Abraham Redman is mentioned in his father John Redman's will of 1612--John too was a draper. One of Abraham's apprentices was Thomas Claiborne brother of Col. William Claiborne who figures so prominently in the founding of VA and MD in the US. Another apprentice is mentioned in Abraham's will as a witness: Hugh Wingfield. 

My notes regarding Francis Bentham--"The various branches of the Bentham family were descended from a common ancestor, Thomas Bentham (c.1513–1579), who was born at Sherburn in Yorkshire and became bishop of Coventry and Lichfield in 1559. The bishop's grandson, Francis Bentham (d. 1670), a draper from Stafford, migrated to London, and established the London branch of the family. Francis's son, Bryan (b. 1627), was Bentham's great-great-grandfather, and his son, also Bryan (b. 1657), was master of the Clothworkers' Company."
from Bentham, Jeremy (1748–1832), philosopher, jurist, and reformer by F. Rosen
http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/printable/2153

Regarding Bryan Bentham, Uncle of Richard Redman:
"8 Bryan Bentham
Bryan Bentham was born about 1656/7.  At the time of his marriage, the license dated 17 Mar 1680/1 calls him "Bryan Bentham, Jr of St Botolph's, clothworker" and aged "about 24".  Bryan Bentham and Anne Gregory were the parents of Jeremiah Bentham baptised 1683 in that same parish.  Bryan became Master of the Clothworkers' Company in 1693.  One of this name was Churchwarden at St Botolph's in 1701. (Source) Secondary sources also call him a pawnbroker, who "lost money by the stop of the Exchequer in 1672", which is quite unlikely, as this one was only 15 years old.  It's more likely that our Bryan was the son of yet another Bryan."
Ancestry of Jeremy Bentham-- 2012 by Will Johnson
https://sites.google.com/site/countyhistorian/ancestry-of-jeremy-bentham

So maybe Richard Redman's Uncle Bryan Bentham is the son of bishop Thomas Bentham? Bryan might be the father of the Francis Bentham mentioned as Richard's kinsman? Bryan b. 1627 would be a son of Francis Bentham, (Francis the kinsman to Richard Redman), and grandson of Bryan Bentham, "Uncle" to Richard Redman?

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 19 March 16 07:05 GMT (UK) »
That first piece you have quoted led me astray for a little while; Francis was a draper from Shefford in Bedfordshire, not Stafford. Whoever wrote that article obviously thought that because Thomas was the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry in Staffordshire, then that's where Francis came from. The bishop had a son Thomas and a son Benjamin, the only children to live to adulthood I believe. As far as I have researched, Thomas junior became vicar of Hockliffe in 1595; Francis was baptised there in 1605.
Francis married a Margaret; I have yet to find a marriage for them. One of their sons was Bryan Bentham baptised in 1627 in Campton, Bedfordshire. He married Alice Cokaine/Cokayne as I mentioned earlier. One of their sons was Bryan born in 1657, who married Ann Gregory in 1681.
There are two possibilities that I can see. Whether it is Abraham Redman's first wife, or even John Redman's wife, Agnes, that is the connection to the Bentham's, I think this "Uncle" Bryan Bentham is either a son or grandson of Benjamin Bentham, or a nephew to Francis (he had some older brothers as far as I can tell).
I hope this makes sense.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Carrington, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Bentham, Holloway, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Yorks, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.


Offline Matt Redman

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 20 March 16 13:54 GMT (UK) »
The connection is likely to be as you say. I am having trouble reading the wills of Abraham Redman and his son Richard Redman verbatim, especially that Latin portion. Trying to figure out the old script is a challenge. Finding evidence or clues is hard going. There is a public record in the National Archives, Kew, date range 1625-1660 that I hope to get a copy of at some point: C 2/Chasl/R40/55 [Redman v Bury. Plaintiffs: Redman by guardian. Defendants: Bury and others. Document type: pleadings]. As I say, I cannot make out the Latin well in Abraham Redman's will but I think Elizabeth Bury, Abraham Redman's sister, acts as guardian to Richard Redman who was a minor at the time of his father's death. If I find anything I will share.

http://mediasvc.ancestry.com/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/e04d1e91-dca1-4de7-be60-9fded7aedc8c.jpg?client=Tree

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 20 March 16 19:29 GMT (UK) »
Post an attachment of the Latin section on the Handwriting and Deciphering Board on here. There are some very clever people that can translate it for you. My Latin is a bit rusty, and together with the handwriting I struggle with it.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Carrington, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Bentham, Holloway, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Yorks, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline Matt Redman

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #14 on: Monday 21 March 16 00:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the advice. I posted accordingly.

Offline Matt Redman

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #15 on: Monday 21 March 16 23:01 GMT (UK) »
The Latin portion of Abraham Redman's 1636 Will as read and translated by "Bookbox" on Rootschat:

On the twenty-seventh day of the month of October in the year of the Lord one thousand six hundred and thirty-six a grant was issued to Elizabeth Bury alias Redman, sister of the said deceased, to administer the goods, rights and credits of the same deceased, according to the tenor and effect of this will, during the minority of Richard Redman, son of the said deceased – because William Willet and Peter Kevell, the executors named in the aforesaid will, for certain reasons affecting them and their associates, expressly renounced the burden of execution of the will of the said deceased; sworn on the Holy Evangelists of God to well (and truly administer) etc. Examined.

(In other words, the executors declined to act, so a grant of administration was made to Abraham Redman’s sister Elizabeth Bury to handle the estate, because Abraham’s son Richard was still under 21.)

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 22 March 16 00:16 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I saw that. I knew Bookbox or one of the other very talented people on that board would be able to translate it for you.
Interesting about Richard's age. Can you connect the Richard that wrote the will of 1647 to the Richard, son of Abraham? The Richard of 1647 was married, so should have been at least 21 or more in 1647, which makes him born at least c.1626. If he is the same Richard, then he could have been born no earlier than c.1616 (under 21 in 1636). That gives you a 10 year window roughly for Richard's birth.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Carrington, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Bentham, Holloway, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Yorks, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline Matt Redman

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Re: Campton PR's look up Completed with much thanks
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 22 March 16 03:06 GMT (UK) »
I cannot be sure at this point if Richard Redman d. 1647 was the son of Abraham Redman d. 1636. But he is not yet ruled out. In any case, Richard was not the son of Sara Balthrop who married Abraham Redman in 1630. If Richard was Abraham's son then the oldest Richard could be at death was age 31. I have to check to see when Elizabeth (Redman) Bury's husband Rafe Bury died. Richard whose father died in 1636 might have been living with the Burys. Also, there were brothers of Richard who died in 1647; and Bentham relatives; and Richard's widow Elizabeth.