!!Completed!! A Huge Thanks to all for Info on Thos Mathias Flintshire

[susiem56]

Can anyone help me with this name please he is listed on the 1841 Census as living in Llwynegrin, Flintshire with Wife Elizabeth and 4 Children also a George Owens who is my Grt Grt Grandfather, i believe that George was the son of Thos Mathias and his mum had him unmarried, as the name crops up in a marriage certificate of Georges First wife.By his second marriage to Jane Williams Thos is now known as Thomas Owen. I have been unable to find them in later census only another family with the name of Matthias and the same wife and children names. Can anyone help me to understand if this is the same family. George was born in approx 1816 Mold Flintshire but i cannot find his baptism or Thos Mathias marriage to Elizabeth.
In Free Reg i have found a child born to Thomas Matthias and Elizabeth Owens called William Matthias born 24th May 1835 which ties in with the 1841 census only the name there is Mathias? Are any of these buried in Flintshire Cemetery

This is driving me crazy please somebody help me to feel this is all worthwhile!!!!!!!!

[despair]

Inspection of the 1851 census shows such identical family detail that this must be the same family in my opinion.
Further,this census says Thomas Mathias is a Chelsea Pensioner born in Wrexham(perhaps a military marriage?)
Unfortunately there are two consecutively numbered National Archives records for William Mathias born Wrexham of similar and appropriate ages,both Sappers and Miners:-
WO97/1249/282 and WO97/1249/283
Original images of the records are available on www.findmypast.co.uk if you think they might help.There is a pay as you go option of £6.95 for 60 credits which will exactly get you copies of these records(30 credits per original).If you go down this route do not opt for the "5 credit transcript" as you will then not have enough credits for the original images.
I think you need to clarify what you have on the "George Owens" issue
as the description lacked data that might help.


Roger

[susiem56]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the reply, i also found these records online but still not enough data to confirm this is who i am looking for, as for George Owens, i have in my possession copies of both his marriage certificates and the first one clearly states Thomas Mathias as his father. I will have to delve a lot deeper to get answers to my question over the birth of George.
Regards

Sue

[despair]

Given the dates involved you need to find someone with access to the parish registers of the area such as those published by the Clwyd Family History Society.There is also the possibility of a non-conformist marriage.I think that in the 1841 census it was common practice to round down ages to the nearest multiple of 5,so you might need a degree of latitude in your search based on birth date.
Roger

[wrjones]

The Cocking Index of Non Conformist Baptisms in Flintshire,produced by Clwyd FHS,lists the baptism at Mold Bethel Independent Chapel of a William Matthias on the 18/06/1835 and the birth on 24/05/1835 to parents Thomas Matthias(Pensioner) and Wife Elizabeth(Maiden name Owens).They are said to be living at Afondu.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

[despair]

What does the second marriage certificate say re George Owens' father?
If you had not quoted the first certificate,I would have said from the evidence of the ages/dates on the 1841 census,gaps between births etc.,that George Owens was the brother of Elizabeth Mathias(nee Owens).
Alternatively,perhaps Thomas was the father by an elder sister of Elizabeth who died and Thomas went on to marry Elizabeth?

Roger

[susiem56]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the reply, the name of the father on the second marriage certificate is Thomas Owen, but George and Jane were both illiterate so it would have been easier i suspect for him to name his father as  Owen the same as himself, or perhaps the vicar assumed this was the case. It never entered my head about an older sister perhaps giving birth this would indeed make more sense as Elizabeth would have only been abt 10-15. I will take your advice and contact Clwyd FHS to obtain more information.

Thanks also to WR Jones, yes i had found this birth and assumed that this was in fact a relative of George.

Cheers to you all

Sue

[despair]

Just to let you know in case you decided to pursue the military record angle-
I cross checked directly with the National Archive database and there appears to be a conflict.The references quoted on the commercial data base which I posted earlier do not correspond to Thomas Mathias on that data base.There is a single record for him-WO97/1249/275.I have asked the commercial database to investigate.
What I have found for a Thomas Mathias(possibly the only one) has him enlisting in Sept.1812 and being discharged in August 1817.I don't know where he served,but if it was abroad,and if the age/date of birth on the census for George Owens are correct,it might preclude him from being the father.The Thomas Mathias in question is 27 on discharge in 1817,tying in with your man.

Is it possible that the  father's name on the first wedding certificate,not the second,is wrong(though I cannot see why this should be so).
Perhaps a Thomas Owens is the father of George Owens(who is the brother of Elizabeth?)

Are there any other clues in the names of the witnesses at the weddings/father's occupation?

Regards
Roger

[susiem56]

Hi Roger,

The two witnesses on the first marriage certificate are Edward Jones and Charlotte Griffiths, married in the Parish Church of Mold, Dec 19th 1848,Thomas Mathias down as a laborer.The Spouse name is Mary ann Hughes father a farmer, which ties in with the occupation of her dad living at Ty'ny Fawnog Llanfair Merionethshire in the 1841 census, George and Mary took over the farm from her parents and according to family relatives still living in the area Jane Williams nursed Mary until her death when she then married George
The second marriage witnesses are John Jones and Laura Williams, fathers name of Thomas Owen Copper Miner Deceased George aged 46 on the marriage to Jane Williams (Sian Owen) 30th Nov 1864 would make his birth 1818, so therefore still a possibility to being Thomas Mathias Son.
I have not had a chance to check out these name as yet

Cheers Sue