John Stanley before 1891 Romany

[deoxy]

Hello, I'm trying to find earlier census records for a Romany called John Stanley whose birthplace in the 1891 census is given as Isle of Wight age 30 which corresponds with the birth index for a John Stanley b. Isle of Wight  1861.  In 1891 he is with his wife Marion (Carter) who was born in Chichester, at 137 West Street, Fareham and their children Charles, Arthur, Albert and Christie.
According to a post on Romany Roots after John died, James Stanley helped to look after his children and is thought to have married Marion.  I can't find a marriage for them. They are together as a married couple in 1901 with the children including an extra child, Frank living at Stamshaw Road, Portsmouth.  I can find Marion in 1911 but not James.
Can anyone find John prior to 1891. 
There is a possible match in 1881 John Stanley 50 birthplace not known, son John 20 b. Isle of Wight and his sister Betsy 17 b. Clay Hall.  They're at Redlands lane, Fareham and are cane chair menders.  I can't find Betsy in any other census.
Any help would be appreciated.   

[PaulineJ]

Looks like he was b Mar qtr 1863.

STANLEY    John        I Wight    2b   506 (freebmd)

MMN was Lambert (iowfhs)

[deoxy]

That's interesting. Thanks very much.  I'll look for a marriage etc.   

[deoxy]

Hre's the Romany Roots post mentioning the Stanley family.  It's the last one at the bottom of the page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/have_your_say/community/romany_voices_archive9.shtml

[derekchesh]

You do not mention whether John Stanley and James Stanley were brothers. If so, it was not legal for James to marry his Deceased Brother's Wife until 1921.

Regards Derek

[deoxy]

Hello Derek,  I've been trying to find a relationship between James and John but the nearest I can get is possible cousins as James' grandmother is Charlotte Page and there's a Charlotte Stanley in Portsmouth in 1841 who has a 12 year old son called John.   I was wondering if he might be John's father which would make him and James cousins but it's a bit of a long shot.   
There's a John aged 9 in Fawley, New Forest in the Pinnick household in 1841 who might be John's father, John (Snr.) This Portsmouth branch of the Stanleys is supposed to have come from the New Forest in the 1850's and John (Snr.)  doesn't know where he was born.  If he was being brought up by someone other than his parents it's possible it might be the reson he didn't know his birthplace.   

[derekchesh]

Hi - will have a trawl through the other censuses and  records but two thoughts come to mind initially from 1891 and 1900.

Have you considered whether John and James were the same man - if so which name is correct?

or - when James took on John's wife, he took his surname on the census as well to avoid "complications". Do you have the birth certificate for Frank?

Regards Derek

[deoxy]

Thanks Derek,  The suggestions about changing his surname and Chritian names are good ideas but I think they're ruled out by the brief Stanley history given in the post on my link a couple of posts back.
I thought I had found a death date for John Stanley, Marion's first husband but I can't seem to find it now.  It seemed to match for place and time for James being with her in 1901 . That's what I get for not making a note of it when I found it........
I think certificates may be the only way to get accurate information and I have none at the moment.  These people are related to my new grandson's paternal grandmother's partner, so I might suggest certificates to him. He seems interested in the information being found which is a better response than I get from my closer relatives.
I can follow James back but can only get back as far as John's father and that's not an absolute certainty but it does seem to fit.  I can't find John senior with a wife.
Here's what I have for James....
1901 James is with Marion and John's children at Cranstone? House, Stamshaw Road, Portsmouth.   His parents James Stanley and Caroline Deacon are at 244 Twyford Avenue, Portsmouth.
1891  James is with his parents James and Caroline at 1 Northsea Cottages, Portsmouth.
1881 The family are at The Blue Anchor, Stamshaw Lane, Portsmouth.
James Snr (Caroline's husband) is the son of James Stanley and Charlotte Page who I'm having trouble finding in the census.   James, Charlotte's husband is James Stanley b. about 1827 in Old Alresford, Hamspshire.  His parents are James Stanley and Ann Broadway, both born around 1807.
Baptism for James who married Caroline Deacon from the IGI is 28/1/1849 at Chilworth, Hampshire.
John Stanley who married Marion, was born in Newport, Isle of Wight 1863.
regards,  Deoxy   

[derekchesh]

I am a bit puzzled by the 1911 census record - Marion says she is "married" - and a "wife", not a widow, even though there is no sign of a husband - and that "her present marriage" has lasted 28 years. It may be that she didn't read the question but her eldest son is 25.

Looking for a black cat in a coal cellar on a dark night is difficult - but are you sure there is one there ? eg have you a death certificate for John with Marion or one of the sons as informant?

Derek