COMPLETED JOYCE William Thomas

[familysleuth]

Hi all - this is my first post to roots web! I am hoping to find a great uncle, William Thomas JOYCE. He was born to Thomas Joyce (county Armagh) and Elizabeth Charlotte Scott in 1882, Christchurch.  He is listed as 'living issue' on his mothers death certificate in 1918; not listed on his fathers death certificate in 1933. I have searched the BDM, and nothing really seems to fit. Records  for WW1 don't fit either. I have searched Australian deaths as well, but the name is common, and I have no personal info on him.

I have records of him being enrolled in school, and I think its him getting into trouble with the police - throwing stones and so on - in Park St where he lived at age 13 or so. Then I can't find him.  A possible marriage to Alice Betts doesn't fit - that William was too old to be mine.

William had three siblings, all much younger - Mabel (1897), Emma (1901)  and Arthur (1905) - all same father.  His existence was a complete surprise to me as the family  never spoke about an older brother - ever!

This JOYCE family is a bit mysterious, and I'd like any clues.... best Wishes

[craigt]

Hi, You'd expect William to appear on the 1914 electoral roll but I can see no trace of him. At the moment I am looking for several ancestors who appear on electoral rolls before WWI and then seem to disappear. They can't be found on Archway (NZ Archives) which has many but not all WWI records. Nor can I find them on Commonwealth Graves or the Auckland Cenotaph. All the possibilities apply: In NZ but under a different name, gone overseas for good, died in WWI but not yet on the records. From memory there is a CD with all those who were assessed and classified or enlisted for WWI service. I don't know if someone could look William up on this.
Regards,
Craig.

[Janette]

hello,

There is a W T Joyce mentioned here

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0kyj/
 
He has been appointed Corporal in the Feild Artillery

Cheers Janette

[familysleuth]

Hi Janette and Craig,

Thanks for your replies! Craig, yes indeed, the change of name, leave the country etc is certainly a possibility. This would make sense in view of the fact that William Thomas was not talked about by my grandmother or other relatives over the years. In 1918 he would have been 36 - I really don't know much about what ages the Army took soldiers from - was there a limit? Janette, I saw that reference - there are actually a couple of William Joyces in military rolls of that period, some of whom list next of kin which rule them out as my g uncle.

Can the army records be examined? I would be looking for enlistment papers  with next of kin. No William Thomas from NZ got a medal or died in WW1 in records I have accessed through Ancestry, but that does not mean he did not fight in the war, and records may not be complete. Cheers!

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello Familysleuth...

Welcome to Rootschat :-)

If you are able to access ancestry you may want to look into and eliminate the William T JOYCE d.1922 in Foleshill, Warwickshire, England. FreeBMD gives his age at death as 39 which makes his year of birth 1883-ish. A stab in the dark but who knows.

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The WW1 Nominal Roll CD mentioned by Craig has no listing for your William Thomas JOYCE. It's not definitive but it does pretty much list every WW1 soldier and reservist on NZ government record. Having said that, three of the other soldiers mentioned in the clipping found by Janette are also not mentioned on the CD.

May be worth looking into the 31st NZ Field Artillery. Finding a Serial Number for your man would be really helpful as it could lead to an Attestation.

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Have you tried to find death notices for the parents. They were not as informative back then as they are now but it's still worth looking into. If you know the date and place of their death you might be able to narrow it down to a specific newspaper or two and then make a request on the board for a newspaper look-up. Some kind soul visiting the NatLib will then try and hunt the notices down. Maybe your man gets a mention.

Regards
Beg

[familysleuth]

Thanks Beg -

I'll try all options. The possibility that he was in the war is reasonable, which was why I was considering it, but I have no evidence  one way or another.

There  are no death notices for his parents that I have found. His mother was estranged from the family (could have something to do with the scandal of being prosecuted for running a 'disorderly house'!). Her remaining young family were caught up in the middle of a nasty marriage separation, and were placed in care. His father was estranged from the family also. My grandmother, his much younger sister, never spoke of an older brother at all. ever.

However in 1918, whoever was the informant on his  mother's death certificate  gave information they possessed - they thought he was alive, and said he was 36, and this tallies with his birth registration date, also with school records. It is possible this informant was his father, as his (separated - who knows- they had a very volatile relationship from all accounts) wife was living in the marital home when she died of cancer in 1918.

Thanks for your posts! I wish that I could trace Arthur Joyces family, the very youngest of the children, but as they are living, and there are so many Joyces.....it seems impossible.

cheers,
Louise

[Beg Clonrode...]

I wish that I could trace Arthur Joyces family, the very youngest of the children, but as they are living, and there are so many Joyces.....it seems impossible.

Hello Louise...

BDM NZ Births lists Arthur as Arthur Henry JOYCE.

The NZSG Marriages CD lists a 1951 marriage for an Arthur Henry JOYCE. I will PM you the name of the bride as we are not allowed to publicly mention the parties involved in a marriage that occured less than 80 years ago.

The 1978 electoral roll index for Fendalton (found on ancestry) lists Arthur Henry JOYCE and his wife. His wife is also mentioned in 1981.

As this couple were married in 1951 it may be worth looking at their 1972 and later electoral roll listings to see if any children are mentioned.

No guarantee that it is the right man but it's worth looking in to :-)

Regards
Beg

[familysleuth]

... thank you so much..... I do know the name of Arthur's wife - it is in my private family tree but I do believe that, although younger than Arthur, she has died - or she must be very elderly. They married a little later in life. I have not been able to trace any children, although I believe they had a couple. I have not seen any at the same addresses on the electoral role, but I will check again!

its most kind of you to post, thank you so much!

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello Familysleuth...

I was at the library and checked the post-1981 electoral rolls for Arthur Henry JOYCE and his wife.

They were listed on the Fendalton (Christchurch) electoral roll until 1989. Then there is no mention of them on the 1990 Fendalton electoral roll.

There is no listing for either of them on the 1989-90 NZ Deaths fiche.

I'm guessing a change of electorate, or even a change of country.

The usual next step would be to individually check each 1990 electoral roll. This normally takes a half hour or so because none of the post-1981 rolls have been indexed. I'll have a go at this some time soon. It's no big deal, just fairly repetitive.

I'm curious as to where they got to as there is no mention of them on the BDM NZ Deaths website (unless of course they are both still living).

No mention of children in the electoral rolls.

Regards
Beg