*UPDATE :Huguenot Quarto series Vol. LIII (53)

[smudwhisk]

Linda

It may be worth you looking at the Francis Record who married twice, the signatures on both marriages do appear to be the same person.  It is not impossible that the clerk for the non-conformist chapel wrote up the wrong mother's name.  I've seen this quite a lot over the years, so it doesn't mean it's not the same person.  If that Francis was in Spitalfields, which Samuel has listed as his birthplace on the census, then it's quite possible he is Samuel's father. 

Interestingly there are trees on ancestry suggesting this Francis Record was the father of your Samuel and born c.1775.  As he died in 1839, I would imagine this is from his death certificate.  Ancestry's E&W Christening Records are showing a Francis Record baptised 1775 in Sussex to a Samuel Record ... he could possibly be that Francis, naming a son after his father.  The fact that Samuel didn't have a son Francis doesn't rule out his father being that person.  There is though a burial in Spitalfields in 1798 of a Francis Record from the workhouse aged 68 years.  This is obviously not going to be the Francis who married twice, but could possibly be a relative ... although of course not necessarily his father.

Nicola

[Valda]

Hi

The source for the burials given are the same as the baptisms. At the start of civil registration 1st July 1837 a deal was done between the government and most non-conformist churches. They deposited their registers with the government in return for the government recognising them as legal documents. This is why The National Archives hold these records. The Genealogist and BMD registers which are websites owned by the same company have indexed the registers and have the images online.


Regards


Valda

[wonkiewidge]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the help.

I'm in the process of trying to piece all this together. I've taken out a subscription with the Genealogist to see if I can glean anything from their records. (no pun intended).

I'll get back to you again shortly.

Cheers,

Linda

[wonkiewidge]

Hello again,

Well, my head is now spinning.
I’ll try to be as concise as possible.


Samuel Record was born in Spitalfields 1801-1802 (from census & death records).

•   There is a baptism for Samuel on 8 Aug 1803 (Birth 1 Feb 1802) in Spitalfields Christchurch.

•   His father was Francis and his mother Mary (Haynes).

•   There are another 2 siblings to this marriage, Mary bn. 1792 and Thomas bn. 1799.


Confusingly there are another 2 baptisms for an Elizabeth born 1793 and Sarah born 1795. The father is again Francis, but the mother this time is Elizabeth. At first it would appear that they are 2 different families, but I am beginning to suspect that this may have been an error on the part of the record keeper.


There is a marriage of Francis Record to a Mary Haynes in 1791. Again this would fit in with the time of the first birth in 1792. There is also a marriage between a Frances Record and an Elizabeth Sparkes, but this marriage is in 1804 in St Mary Aldermanbury city of London  and Francis is stated as being a widower. I can find no burial entry for a Mary Record between 1802 (when Samuel was born) and 1804. There is however a burial of a Mary Record on 31 Jan 1825 in Spitalfields Christchurch (Boundary Court) which gives this Mary’s date of birth around 1769. Again this seems to fit if we are talking about 2 different Francis’.


On looking at the baptisms of all the children it is noticeable that 3 baptisms took place at the same time on 14 April 1799 in the same place. Mary (daur. of Mary) and Elizabeth & Sarah (daurs. Of Elizabeth). The baptisms of Elizabeth & Sarah have errors that have been corrected with regards to the abode, (Bethnal Green crossed out and Spitalfields put in it’s place). I believe it’s quite likely that the mother of Elizabeth and Sarah is incorrect, and that it should read Mary. As Nicola said, it can happen and I have seen this also. The ages of Elizabeth & Sarah would fit in quite nicely between Mary and Thomas, making the run of children:  Mary, Elizabeth, Sarah, Thomas & Samuel.



Deaths


There is a death for a Francis Record in 1839 in the Whitechapel district. Unfortunately I cannot find the details of this online, so I have sent for the death certificate (at least it should give his age.... knowing my luck it will be an infant).

There is a Thomas Record (not the brother) buried 26 May 1825 aged 63 (bn. C. 1762) at Globe fields Bethnal Green, (a Wesleyan burial ground). His abode was given as Bonner St.

•   Bonner St. Is the address for Samuel Record in the 1841 census....... Coincidence?

•   Globe Fields is also the burial ground that Samuel’s wife Martha was buried in, in 1833.

•   The 3rd Record found in this burial ground is that of Mary, bur. 1833. This cannot be Mary Haynes his mother (who I suspect died in 1825), but that of another Mary as the age given is 90 (bn. C. 1743). The abode given is Green St. Bethnal Green. (Green St. & Bonner St. Are in the same area).

Lastly there is the burial of another Francis in 1798 aged 68 from the workhouse. This I haven’t found a connection for.


The French Connection

I have tried researching Jean Ricord/Ricard/Record and his family, but have not been able to find anything.

No marriages of his children, burials, census returns (albeit a bit early).

I did however find a marriage on  the IGI for Jean Ricard to a Marie Renorf on 22nd Oct 1765 in Amsterdam. The name given for her on their children’s baptism’s is Rennov.

From the information that Richard found about joining the Artillary Church in Spitalfields in 1755, he must have returned to Amsterdam, married and then returned to England where upon he joined the Church at Threadneedle St.

I have looked at the trees on Ancestry, mine is one of them, but there is no more info than I already have.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here?   (polite suggestions on a postcard please).

Or is this a lost cause.

Thank you if you have taken the time to read this.

Linda

[smudwhisk]

Hi Linda

You have been having fun   It's worth bearing in mind that while Samuel's second wife was of Huguenot descent, it's quite likely he may not have been.  Just because Francis Record used a non-conformist chapel, doesn't mean that he was of Huguenot descent.  I have quite a lot of London ancestors who used non-conformist chapels at various times.  I also have two Huguenot ancestors who married non-huguenots at the Fleet and Stepney St Dunstan respectively.  Also have quite a few sidelines who married partners of huguenot descent but whose families had not used any of the huguenot churches for several generations.

I'd wait for the Francis Record death certificate and see what his age is.  The two baptisms with mother listed as Elizabeth, being on the next page, may well be down to the error by the clerk.

Admittedly the two Francis Record marriages do have very similar signatures and could well be the same person.  There may be another Mary Record in that area.  Burials in London, as I'm sure you have found, are a bit of a lottery, sometimes you find them, sometimes you don't.  Have you seen the 1839 Elizabeth Record burial on thegenealogist, she's buried in one of the Mile End non-conformist chapels?  Depending on whether this is before or after the Francis whose certificate you are waiting for, it might be worth getting the death cert for her to see what it says.  It may mention her husband whether deceased or living.

It's probably worth following up the other Record entries in the area to see what appears.  Personally, I'd perhaps leave off the possible huguenot side of it for now until something more concrete appears to link in your family.

Nicola

[wonkiewidge]

Thanks Nicola for your advice.


....... There is nothing quite like trying to do a puzzle with half of the pieces missing is there. 

I'll take your advice and wait for the death certificate.

The French connection, for the moment, I think is a bit straw clutching, but one to file for future reference.

Thanks again, and I'll let you know the outcome.

Linda

[wonkiewidge]

Hi,

Well I now have the death certificate for Francis Record. Came pretty quickly considering I only ordered it 5 days ago!

Francis record died on 19 August 1839 at 12 Pelham Street Mile End New Town. He was aged 70 (Bn. c.1769), a weaver, and he died of a "Rupture".

The informant and person present at death was his son Samuel Record of 11 Bonner St. Bethnal Green. This is the correct Samuel.

So this Francis is definitely mine. 

Any ideas about his baptism?

Linda

[richarde1979]

Well it does match well for the Jean Francois Ricard in 1769. My ancestor was baptised Julien Francois Bellenger, but always went as Francis Bellenger, so it was not unknown for the French to favour their middle names. But I think you'd need more evidence. Certainly there seems to be other non-huguenot Records knocking about at same time.

[wonkiewidge]

Hello Richard,

How did you prove that Francis Bellenger was the same person as Julien Francois Bellenger? Was it the unusual surname?

Unfortunately it is also a fair match for the Francis Record from Catsfield in Sussex. 

... and they are only the two I know about.

Linda