Henry and Lucy Smith

[kassejayne]

Smiths of Norfolk?
I am trying to find records for Henry Smith, and his wife Lucy.
They married and had a daughter Lucy born 1865 in Norfolk  and a son Charles born 1867 in Newcastle.
At some point the family came to St Helens Lancashire were Lucy snr died 1905, after being pushed down the stairs and fracturing her skull. The age on the certificate is 68. it says her husband was Henry Smith and he was a forge Puddler.
I am having trouble with this family because according to the 1881 census she is living in Frazer's court as a widow with the two children, she gives her age as 50 and her birthplace as London Middlesex...she changes the birthplace location to Norfolk on later census records and her age isn't right. on her daughters and sons marriage records they have their father Henry Smith down as a wellsinker. I have found a Henry Smith (wellsinker) with his wife Lucy living in Norfolk on the 1851 census,  if the 1851 record is right the age on her death cert is wrong and I can't find them on the 1861 or the 1871 census's or a death record for Henry Smith. can you help please

[groom]

Hi

Firstly remember that the age on the death certificate would have been given by the person who registered the death so may not be correct.

Have you got the reference for the 1851 census as with such a common name it is hard to find them?

[rosie99]

Have you got the reference for the 1851 census as with such a common name it is hard to find them?

I think it is them H0107/ 1812
Folio 325 Page Number 12
Henry age 26 (a well sinker) and Lucy 25 both bn Norwich

but I think this family are then (still in Norwich) in 1861 
RG9 /1210
Folio 96
Page 33
Henry Smith 35 occ Cordwainer bn Newlatton(?)
Lucy Smith 34 bn Norwich
Harriet Smith 7 bn Norwich
Henry Smith 3 bn Norwich
 

[rosie99]

It might be better if we work back from what you know - when and where are the family in St Helens

In 1901 Lucy is at 96 College Street, St Helens
Lucy Smith age 64 bn Norwich a Widow living with her son Charles age 33 bn Newcastle on Tyne

In 1891 is a housekeeper age 57 bn Norwich living Parr, St Helens

In 1881 as you said
Lucy age 50 bn London, Middlesex
Lucy dtr age 17 bn Norwich, Cheshire  (Could always be Northwich    )
Charles age 14 bn Newcastle

[rosie99]

It Looks as though Henry the Well Sinker is living with his brother in law in 1871
Englands Buildings, St Martin at Oak, Norwich
RG10 /1807 f 83 p10

William Dunham age 53 bn Suffolk
Harriet Dunham age 52 bn Norwich
Henry Smith Brother in law Married age 47 Well Sinker bn Norwich

[groom]

Rosie - do you think the 1861 family are the same as he seems to have gone from wellsinker in 1851, to cordwainer in 1861 and then back to wellsinker?


Kassejayne have you got their marriage certificate, when did they marry? There is a marriage of a Henry Smith in Norwich in the March quarter of 1847. On the same page is a Lucy Blyth.  Perhaps you also need a birth certificate of one of the children to see what her maiden name was.

[kassejayne]

Hi thank you all for taking time to help me with this.
I have looked at the 1861 census but with him being a cordwainer wasn't sure if this was the right family and dismissed it
with the 1871 census for Henry and his sister and brother in law .....It could be him but where is his wife and children gone I cannot find them on any 1871 census.......I know they travelled as Charles was born in Newcastle. but whether they came straight to St Helens I don't know.
I have looked on the St Helens connect census site but they are not on it....they only appear on the 1881 minus Henry
I have seen the marriage for Henry and Lucy 1847 but because the ages don't fit with her age later on  I wondered if it was the wrong family.
 I don't know who gave the information for  Lucy as her son was living in Yorkshire at the time of her death and her daughter Lucy Riley nee smith seems to have disappeard from St Helens after 1901........don't know were she went
all I know is that the coroner issued the death certificate it says........manslaughter by Terence Doolan
If the marriage and 1851 census is right then age on following records have got to be wrong and I get the feeling that there is a missing link between the older children and the younger ones
thank you
karen

[groom]

Is the death was manslaughter it sounds as if there must have been a trial. It might be worth seeing if there is anything in the local papers - that might give you more details.

[kassejayne]

Hi
I found a newspaper cutting it says initially Terence Doolan was charged with being drunk and disordely ...apparently he had been ejected from the house were she was housekeeper because he was abusive. He came back and was allowed access....he went up stairs and shouted down for candles. Lucy took them up to him and according to a witness he snatched them from her hand and then pusched her back rusulting in her falling down stairs and fracturing her skull. according to the 1911 census records he was living with his wife so if he served time it wasn't that long.