Curragh Camp 1861

[anonemouse]

i have found a relation
listed at
Curragh camp in 1861
My great great uncle
Private Joseph Birtwisle 6th Battalion military train Curragh Camp

I do know that Joseph was in her Majestys army at Chatham in 1855 His father listed him as an executor in his will dated 1855.
Joseph was  married to Susannah Margaret Mackay  at Woolwich in 1863 . Her father was Alexander Mackay and had also served in the Army Susannah was born at the Cape of Good Hope c1841
I have not found Joseph
 in England for the 1861 census

Having re-looked at my great great uncles marriage certificate , he married at Woolwich in 1863 and was then based at Woolwich barracks. What I originally thought said military training. the end looked squashed, it definitely says Military Train.
He had been a Groom in civilian life. So it makes sense that he could have been dealing with horses in the army. You don't think about the supply side of things being from horse drawn wagons at that time...

Then looking on the net at Curragh Camp, it seems that regiments were based there on rotation. Also in 1861 when my great great uncle was there, could have coincided with the time when the Prince of Wales later Edward V11 was there too.

I would be extremely grateful for any help. ie any ideas to his original regiment He was born  at Northwich Cheshire
any photos of possible uniform
Anonemouse

[t mo]

hi
the only birtwisle,s in pension records and there,s only 5 all come from lancashire so if he,a not there he won,t beanywhere else as these are the only army service/pension records available all others would have been destroyed way back also what makes you think he was in any other regt apart from what you already know of
regards
trevor

[anonemouse]

Hi Trevor.
My ancestor Joseph Birtwisle was born at Northwich in Cheshire in 1831. He was the second son of Samuel Birtwisle of Castle, a grocer.
Josephs occupations prior to 1861 were at Northwich
domestic servant/coachman
and
Groom

When his father made his will in 1855, he lists his son Joseph Birtwisle as an executor and at present a Corporal in Her Majestys Army at Chatham Kent.
I can find no trace of Joseph in 1861

I assumed as his father removed him as an exec before his death, that, Joseph had either died or they had fallen out.

Some time later after searching for a number of years, when I was subbed to Ancestry.co.uk. I found a record that looked very promising for his death. It was in London in 1899..
I had no idea that he was in London so I sent for the death certificate to check it out. This also looked promising so I started to look for him in census returns.  Still with no luck , so I joined a London email list. I gave my details and stated what I was looking for. A very kind lady helped me, she found the family of Joseph Birtwisle married with sons... in several census returns, 1881, by which time he was no longer in the army, then 1891, 1901 after Joseph had died and later 1911.  There was no doubt that this was him with a family.
But their name had not once been spelt or enuerated correctly.

Nest I travelled backwards in time and found his marriage certificate.
1863 at Woolwich.
When I first saw the certificate, I mis read it as Military Training... later turned out to be Military Train.
So I started to look up what that was and found that  he would have been at Curragh Camp in 1861 which is why I could not find him in England anywhere... All I want to do now is find out more about his service what his uniform looked like etc,

Sorry to be so long winded, but thought you would want to know the details.
kind regards
Anonemouse

[t mo]

don,t worry it,s easier sometimes if we have chapter and verse as it saves asking questions but here,s one for you have you found him in the 1871 cen .
trevor

[anonemouse]

yes , sorry Trevor, I forgot that one.
In 1871 , he was in Northwich next door or in a separate part of his fathers household at Castle Northwich with his wife Susannah and 3 month old son Samuel, who had been born at Castle Northwich.  He was a coachman. aged 39 married ,
I noticed in 1881 that the son Samuel was not with the family.. Yes he had died.  He died at Salford Manchester in  november 1875 of Scarlet Fever.  As it happens one of Josephs sisters also lived at Salford from time to time. I say time to time because her husband was a Journeyman engineer. 
The sister Mary, came back to Northwich some time before 1881 as a widow. She was running her fathers shop, who had died in 1876.

I have no idea why Joseph migrated back towards the South.
Which as it happens was the Pancras area of London
Joeph died at

13, in 240 Great College Street, Kentish Town, Pancras, Camberwell,London


Joseph was an executor on his fathers will untill 1876 at a death bed will Joseph was renounced as an executor but not renounced as a beneficiary.

Joseph was a Corporal in her Majesty's army at Chatham in Kent in 1856 and still in the army 1863 when he married

His various occupations were
1841 age 9 scholar at home Castle
groom 1851 at home age 19 Castle
1853 army at chatham
married to Sushannah Margaret Mackay who was born supposedly at Cape of Good Hope South Africa


not seen him on 1861 census yet
 married at Greenwich Greater London mar ¼ 1863

 birth of his son Samuel  residence at Castle with father at Twemlow Place/
Cen 1870


Coachman 1871 census Twemlow Place Castle Northwich

Harry Scott Birtwisle was born in Northwich Mar ¼ 1873

Joseph Edwin was born at Salford in the Dec ¼ of 1875 and Mary Jane Worsleys

Annie Birtwisle Worsley died Mar ¼ 1876 at Salford so he may have been with her.

~~~~~~~~------
1881 St Pancras  "Birt"
RG11; Piece: 199; Folio: 19; Page: 32;

28 Wellesly Road Pancras
Joseph Birt m 45 labourer Chester Cheshire
Susan Birt wife 40 Kent Woolwich
Henry 8 son Scholar Chester Cheshire
Edward 5 son lancashire manchester
--------------------------------------------------------

1891 St Pancras Birtwistle RG 12 /129/17/28

7 Hucley Palce St Pancras
Joseph Birtwistle head married 57 road sweeper Northwich Cheshire
Susan Birtwistle wife  50 South Africa
Henry Birtwistle son18 Cheshire Northwich ticket writer
Joseph E Birtwistle son  15 French polisher mancester pendleton
Philip Birtwistle son 8 scholar  St Pancras London

~~~~~~~~----------------------
1899 died at Pancras

family still at St Pancras in 1901




1901
Rg13 122/63/53
Hampstead
Henry Scott Beckworth Chehill Northwich
Margaret wife ashford kent
Susana M Beckworth South Africa
Philip

[anonemouse]

Sorry i was editing my old notes and unfortunatley sent in error.

HO/107/1589/328
1851 census
Greenwich Woolwich St Mary
 4 James Place
Elizabeth Scott Berwick upon Tweed head  widow mother 75 Launderess
Elizabeth Mac KAY West Indies  daughter widow  launderess
Jane Mackay grand daughter 13 Cape of Good Hope SA scholar
Susan Mackay 10 granddaughter Cape of Good Hope SA scholar

I found an army marriage for Alexander Mackay and Elizabeth Scott
and likewise for bith of Susannah

Susannah was with her son Harry in 1911 and died in Edmonton in 1914
Joseph Edwin was later in the Navy
from searching Ancestry records
Philip was back and to From England to Canada all his life, and I have his death in England
Harry Scott  married.

[t mo]

blimey your answer was like reading war and peace without the 1812 overture  .
one thing that may help and make it worth looking again in service /pension records , can you give us the variants of his surname you,ve found as it may be pos he,s been mistranscribed in those as well .
regards
trevor