a Plymouth geography question (1861 census)

[JaneyCanuck]

Hello! I'm wondering whether anyone is familiar enough with Plymouth (St Andrew) that they can tell me where to look on a modern map for this area as described in the 1861 census, and maybe can tell me something about the area around that time:

Devon > St Andrew > District 13
Part of the Parish of St Andrew
The North side of Frankfort Street and King Street from the corner of Russell Street to Pontey's Gate -- Cambridge Street both sides, as far up on the West (or lefthand side) as the turning into Cambridge Lane West; and on the East (or righthand side) as far as Morley Street -- thence along the South side of Morley Street, to, and along the West side of Russell Street -- including Willow Street and Plot -- Arch Street and Morley Lane.
(The district is 72 pages long, so it was rather densely populated, I would think.)

The only one of those street names I can find on a modern map is King Street, and without some association with any of the other names, I have no idea whether it would be the same street today, even.

Reading the nearby district descriptions at Ancestry,
- District 12 includes York Street, Richmond Street and Lane, Cobourg Street and Lane, and William Street and Lane
- District 14 includes Russell Street, Richmond Street, Cobourg Street, Saltash Street, Drake Street (and then through the Market diagonally), Cornwall Street, Mill Lane, Milton Street, Richmond Lane South

I have found a Cobourg Street, a major artery, with a Cornwall Street a couple of blocks south of it, and Market Stalls/Pannier Market at the west end of Cornwall Street. There are various loopy kinds of streets around Cornwall Street that Google doesn't seem to bother giving names for. Ah, and a few blocks south of the east end of Cornwall Street, there is a Russell Court. Google maps seems to call the area Barbican.

But I just can't find any two of these streets paralleling or crossing each other so I can situate myself!

I've tried looking at what I think is the area on an 1867 ordnance survey map,
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55114&sheetid=2536&zm=1&x=464&y=230&ox=4296&oy=1592
but even at max zoom it's kinda illegible. I have the impression that where it shows what I think is Cobourg and George Streets meeting up, that is the modern intersection of Cobourg and Western Approach, with Princess Street several blocks south of that intersection on both maps.

So I think that's the area I'm looking at: bounded today by Western Approach, Cobourg Street and Notte Street. Presumably the name of Russell Court (a commercial building of some sort? corner of Palace Street and St Andrew Street) is related to Russell Street.

In 1861, there is a Prince of Wales Arms on Russell street, and it's that vicinity where my people were (only for that one census, being previously in Cornwall and subsequently in London), in what seems to be a multi-family building. I'm just wondering what the area was like, basically.

If there are any locals around with a bit of historical geography knowledge to pass on, I'd be very grateful!

[BradyCMH]

Trying looking up on the Web "Old Maps".  Identify St. Andrews and locate it accurately with the pointer and enlarge an appropriately aged 1/2,500 scale or 1/500 scale town map.

[JaneyCanuck]

Well, that's pretty much what I did ... specifying old maps plymouth devon to save myself a lot of unhelpful results ...

If you have any particular old map to point me to ...


edit

I gather you meant the website www.old-maps.co.uk, and not just a random google for old maps?

I'm afraid that no matter what I do, that site either reverts me to a modern map when I try to look at an old one, or gives me some random zoomed-in place on an old map that I can't move away from ... If I zoom in on the modern map to the area I described, Western Approach - Cornwall Street - Notte Street, I am told there are no available maps of other types, or again given some random zoomed-in location on an old map that I can't identify or move away from. I did manage to find a Mill Lane and Frankfort Square in 1856, but that's the best I can get it to do for me.

I'll just have to hope for a local to enlighten me!

[BradyCMH]

Hello! I'm wondering whether anyone is familiar enough with Plymouth (St Andrew) that they can tell me where to look on a modern map for this area as described in the 1861 census, and maybe can tell me something about the area around that time:

Devon > St Andrew > District 13
Part of the Parish of St Andrew
The North side of Frankfort Street and King Street from the corner of Russell Street to Pontey's Gate -- Cambridge Street both sides, as far up on the West (or lefthand side) as the turning into Cambridge Lane West; and on the East (or righthand side) as far as Morley Street -- thence along the South side of Morley Street, to, and along the West side of Russell Street -- including Willow Street and Plot -- Arch Street and Morley Lane.
(The district is 72 pages long, so it was rather densely populated, I would think.)

The only one of those street names I can find on a modern map is King Street, and without some association with any of the other names, I have no idea whether it would be the same street today, even.

Reading the nearby district descriptions at Ancestry,
- District 12 includes York Street, Richmond Street and Lane, Cobourg Street and Lane, and William Street and Lane
- District 14 includes Russell Street, Richmond Street, Cobourg Street, Saltash Street, Drake Street (and then through the Market diagonally), Cornwall Street, Mill Lane, Milton Street, Richmond Lane South

I have found a Cobourg Street, a major artery, with a Cornwall Street a couple of blocks south of it, and Market Stalls/Pannier Market at the west end of Cornwall Street. There are various loopy kinds of streets around Cornwall Street that Google doesn't seem to bother giving names for. Ah, and a few blocks south of the east end of Cornwall Street, there is a Russell Court. Google maps seems to call the area Barbican.

But I just can't find any two of these streets paralleling or crossing each other so I can situate myself!

I've tried looking at what I think is the area on an 1867 ordnance survey map,
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55114&sheetid=2536&zm=1&x=464&y=230&ox=4296&oy=1592
but even at max zoom it's kinda illegible. I have the impression that where it shows what I think is Cobourg and George Streets meeting up, that is the modern intersection of Cobourg and Western Approach, with Princess Street several blocks south of that intersection on both maps.

So I think that's the area I'm looking at: bounded today by Western Approach, Cobourg Street and Notte Street. Presumably the name of Russell Court (a commercial building of some sort? corner of Palace Street and St Andrew Street) is related to Russell Street.

In 1861, there is a Prince of Wales Arms on Russell street, and it's that vicinity where my people were (only for that one census, being previously in Cornwall and subsequently in London), in what seems to be a multi-family building. I'm just wondering what the area was like, basically.

If there are any locals around with a bit of historical geography knowledge to pass on, I'd be very grateful!

I am not clear as to why you want a modern map to check on the location described in an 1861 census!

If you mark the centre of Notte St. on Old Maps .com you will find a very good 1894/5 edition of the 25" o.s. which I am sure has everything on around St. Andrew that it should have.  You may have to work up and down the menu on the l.h.s. to select the edition you want. Don't bother with the 1/500 scale: they don't shew a big enough area. Good luck!

[JaneyCanuck]

I am not clear as to why you want a modern map to check on the location described in an 1861 census!

I'm not sure why you think I do ...

I explained that I tried first on a modern map and could not find the streets in question, but got enough from them that it seemed that the 1861 location I was looking at was in the triangle I described. I couldn't think of any other way of getting the rough location, once I found that most of the street names no longer exist.

Old maps are not searchable. I only identified Notte Street as being in the vicinity from a modern map.

I found the Old Maps thing indescribably frustrating, and after about 15 minutes I gave up. I'll try it again some time later.

What I was actually asking about, of course, was the nature of the area around the time in question, and a map is not going to tell me that. I'd hoped that my description of the area in question -- apparently bounded by George St/Western Approach, Cobourg Street and Notte Street -- might be enough for someone with local historical knowlege to give me a bit of an idea, or direct me somewhere useful.

edit to emphasize above what I'm really asking: was this a ratty and disreputable area, a well-to-do area, ...? What sort of dwellings might have been there around the Prince of Wales Arms? -- the one where my family was having had multiple households. My question is because this is where my grx2 grandmother and several children were living in 1861. Her husband, not present in the household, was a "mining agent" who I believe had some means at the time (at least, he had recently procured a mining licence from a prominent personage in Cornwall, and just before the 1871 census went bankrupt as a share dealer).

I'm trying this and that, to figure out what the family's circumstances were at various times. It's difficult, with my gr-grfather ending up a labourer, while his younger sister was first on the stage and then married a wealthy young man and lived with him briefly on 50 acres in Cheshire with 8 servants, 4 of them grooms ... and my guess that the reason why the husband changed his name a few times thereafter and then disappeared was his penchant for the ponies is probably confirmed by his own bankruptcy in the early 1880s ...


Meanwhile, I did find this:
http://archive.org/details/historyplymouth02wortgoog
"History of Plymouth: From the Earliest Period to the Present Time"
- the present time then being 1872, and it refers to Pontey's Gardens, for example, which I assume were associated with Pontey's Gate, about which I find nothing. Browsing through that book may tell me something -- and may be useful to someone else, too.

[StintonLomas]

Hi
Put the www.old-maps.co.uk marker in the middle of Cornwall road just  left (West) of the letter C.

Then using the map selector on the right choose the 1894/95 1:2500 scale,

Because that is only a partial coverage map there will be only half a map showing BUT Morley St W and Morley St can be seen crossing Cambridge St jus right of centre.

this is B/W map and your cursor will have a circle with a + in the middle, put the cursor on this junction and then left click to get a first magnification, if you want to magnify more you can use ctrl/shift+ when you enlarge you will have to use the top and bottom sliders to navigate around; there will be 2 sets of these one set for the browser and one for the Maps site.

[cemetery friends]

Plymouth data a fine website hosted by Brian Moseley gives lots of interesting facts on Plymouth including licensed premises [although in many cases only the address is quoted]. He has for example details on Frankfort Street and Bedford Street see http://www.plymouthdata.info/Roads-Streets-Frankfort%20Street.htm and http://www.plymouthdata.info/Roads-Streets-Bedford%20Street.htm

Another Plymouth based website by Steve Johnson http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/ is packed with images. The 1861 period is probably beyond the age of photographic images but by trawling through you will possibly pick up street scenes around that location [the area that you mention developed into several large stores and commercial premises as well as private housing]. The area suffered bomb damage in WWII hence during the rebuilding streets were often re-aligned or incorporated into new build and in many cases whilst using the original name the alignment does not closely relate to the original layout. However as it was a popular area for shopping etc, historians such as Steve often feature images of departmental stores etc in the area particularly Victorian to pre WWII period. These would post date 1861 but give you a feel for the area. Unfortunately there is no index or comprehensive search facility but he welcomes phone enquiries and would readily point you to any known images or maps. Otherwise you could spend an hour or so trawling through his interesting site [and not find a result].

Additionally if you go to Google Images there are several images of Frankfort Gate, [Plymouth] mainly the post 1960 build but a few older ones.

[JaneyCanuck]

Terrific! And I wouldn't mind at all spending an hour trawling through, even if I didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

I shall follow up on all of that, and thank you very much!

I've already seen, at plymouthdata.info, a Prince of Wales Inn on Frankfort, which could be a renaming of the street, or slight relocation, of the inn in question. Conversely, there are two others on the street in question ... no dates, unfortunately, but I shall soldier on!

Many thanks!

[hendren]

It's a very different  Plymouth today compared to the 1861 census.
What was the area of  Frankfurt Street is now New George Street, King Street is still there but a lot shorter then it used to be, it all got swallowed up in the redevelopments of the city centre after the war.  It was densley populated before then and a lot of houses were demolished to make way for the new shopping district.  It wasn't a well to do area, I would say working class.
Cobourg Street is still there but very different to how it used to look, it used to have terraces of victorian houses.

It isn't the Barbican area, that is further to the east, hope this helps

Maureen